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Old Dec 05, 2008, 12:04 PM
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Oshkosh, WI
Joined Nov 2002
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Another Haoye 4-inch Fan Tested

Snow covered my lawn & roof since weekend before Thanksgiving Day; & now temps are in single digit. I hesitated to post until this task is further along, but now even the 12s packs are reluctant to work. Rather than wait till next April, here goes...

After successfully flying my JHH F-4 twin 90mm fans conversion, I was looking for suitable fans to power a larger twin EDF in mind during ‘07-‘08 winter, I came across some promising data on the above fan published by Miljenko on this forum. I promptly ordered some 4ins units intending to do more tests to pin down a suitable motor that will run reliably at a thrust range of 7 to 8 lbs. A 5ins unit (I skipped the 4.5in) was also ordered at the same time when questions re its design origin appeared on this forum. Meanwhile Arngeir Blakseth added his data, expanding the 4-ins fan ops range. The idea of trying outrunner motor was also intriguing. This may have been after Stu’s fan debuted & certainly before Tam’s fan became public. Both these gents have certainly done superb jobs to provide their fans, & Tam has probably done more than anyone else to include extensive flight development. The Haoye fans on the other hand have very little performance info from the source. But then curiosity has me obsessed to carryout some torture testing! What with 7-blades on the rotor which dictates more torque from a suitable motor?

Please jump in any time with your thoughts & comments. I plan to post something on the fan physicals, motor shaft adaptors, Rotor balancing, my Economy Test Rig, Inlet Ring fabrication, data & performance graphs using the two mentioned motors tested to date.

Inserting the following summary table of fan performance including updates (copying Carl Riches style, thanks Carl!) for facilitating search:

..Motor/Fan** Kv** Pack* Volt-nl** Volt.. Amps.. kW-in**RPM **S-Thrust** Comments
Quantum 36-70.. na** 8s2p….. na *** 30.85… 48… 1.481… 23300… na……….by Miljenko
Quantum 36-70.. na** 8s2p** na*** 28.3….. 46… 1.313** 21950** 3.8*** Miljenko
Century650A/Haoye 4:
… -do-………. 800..... 10s....... na ……. 35…... 60…. 2.10……. na…... 7.49…… by A. Blakseth
.... -do-......... 800…. 11s....... na.......... 36 ...... 64…. 2.3……… na….. 7.93……. –do-
... -do- ......... 800…. 11s ...... na…….. 37…... 67…. 2.5……… na….. 8.38……. –do-

Hacker A40-10s/Haoye 4:
…-do-……… 750…... 6s…..... na......... 21.5... 28.7... 0.616…. 15668... 2.25….. by P. Lin.. 9/6/08
... -do-......... 750….. 12s….... na…..... 40.1... 73.2... 2.944…. 25654... 7.31...... 9/6/08
... -do-......... 750...... 12s….... na.….... 44.5... 21.1... 0.952…. 16620... 2.813.... 9/7/08... 77F
... -do-..........750….. 12s….... na…… 38.5.... 68.6... 2.644…. 25157... 6.813.... 9/7/08
... -do-.........750….. 12s….... na….... 39.2.... 72.8... 2.858…. 25294... 7.188.... 9/7/08
... -do-......... 750….. 12s…... 48.3….. 39.7.... 73.2... 2.913…. 25603... 7.313.... 9/7/08
... -do-......... 750..... 12s…..... na….... 45.3.... 14.3... 0.651…... na….... 2.25….. 9/7/08
... -do-......... 750...... 4s…….. na….... 15.3.... 16.4... 0.253…... na….... 1.25…. 11/2/08.. 57F30.32”
... -do-......... 750...... 4s…….. na….... 14.9.... 16.2... 0.239…. 11349... 1.13….. 11/2/08.
... -do-......... 750..... 10s…..... na….... 33.5.... 54.8... 1.843…. 22586... 5.63….. 11/2/08

Neu1521-2Y/UH4:
… do-……... 780….... 4s….... na….... 15.3…. 15.1... 0.231…. 11703.... 1.0…... 11/14/08.
... -do-........ 780…... 6s ….... na…... 20.2….. 23.6... 0.484…. 15018... 2.25..... 11/13/08. 44F29.78”
... -do-........ 780..... 10s…... 40.2…. 32.1….. 49.8.... 1.601…... na…... 6.13..... 11/15/08. 73F30.03”
... -do-........ 780..... 10s…..... na…... 33.0…. 52.8... 1.724…. 23040.... 6.313… 11/27/08. 35F29. 77F
... -do-........ 780.… 12s…... 47.0..... 38.3….. 48.4... 1.863…. 23760... 7.313.... 11/27/08.. ca 90%WOT
... –do-…….. 780.… 12s……. na? … 38.1….. 66.1... 2.526.... 26550.... 8.313.... 01/05/09.. ca 63degF* (note*): My test runs prior to 010509 were made in outdoor conditions, hence large variation in temp.

Medussa 36-70-880:**
……880…..6s….… na….… na…… 40.8….. na….... 19530… 3.50…. 07/25/09
……880….12s….... na….… na…... 112.5…. na.…... 32790… 9.38…. 07/26/09. 75F58%29.81s.
(note **: Due to anticipated amps over the capacity of my Whattmeter, incomplete data here as only a clamp-on meter & Hz meter were used. Runs to be repeated when required shunt become available).

Neu 1515-2.5Y ...850: **
…-do-…….. 850….12s…… na……. na…….. 90 …. na…… 34140…. 9.31…. 07/29/09. 74F43%29.84


p.s.: sorry for mispelled name, my apologies.
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Last edited by PhilLin; Dec 31, 2009 at 12:38 PM. Reason: corrected name
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 12:08 PM
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Oshkosh, WI
Joined Nov 2002
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A few dimensions & info on the Haoye 4-inch fan:
Rotor OD: 102mm
Rotor Hub OD: 52mm
Motor Tube OD: 52mm
Motor Tube ID: 48mm
Fan Shroud OD 112.5mm, (not incl. 3.5mm circumferential ribs)
Fan Shroud ID: 106mm
Fan Shroud length 77mm
Fan Weight: 147g total, shroud 85g, spinner + rotor 57g, collet 5g.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 12:15 PM
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Oshkosh, WI
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Haoye 4-inch Fan Motor tube

An arm pair of the 4-armed motor flange mounting spider that came in the fan is of very weak design, as mentioned by @bruff. I have a Hacker A40-10S outrunner for the initial test run (see arrows in pix #1 attached, a Neu motor was next used for the follow-on test), so I modified said mounting spider according to Bob’s info by cutting down the alu spider, that came in the Hacker motor hardware package, to fit snugly in the motor tube, and gluing this against the original nylon spider using JB Weld epoxy; then using the appropriate mounting holes of the alu spider as drill guide, enlarged the nylon holes to allow the motor mounting screws. Don’t forget to use washers when pulling the alu spider tight in place while the glue sets, or when mounting a motor, as it is easy to crush the said nylon parts (don’t ask how I found out). Note also a motor tube corner cutout at one segment between a stator blade pair, needed for out-runner motor leads exit.

I wanted to try the Century motor per A Blakseth, but did not want to enlarge the motor tube ID to accommodate.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 12:30 PM
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Oshkosh, WI
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Motor Shaft Adaptor:

The shaft adaptors obtained from UH with fan use a set screw to secure to motor shaft, the latter at 5mm dia. did not have much excess material to grind a flat for the set-screws. The attached pix shows the stock adaptors also have a small area for seating and transmitting torque to the impeller. Since I cud not find a source for a suitable off-shelf collet type substitute with a long enough shaft length, I decided to design & custom fabricate adaptors locally.

I had difficulty finding a shop that can/will handle this & after a long search, manage to get some made in 5mm & 6mm motor shaft size. You don’t want to know how much the shop wanted for an order lot of 10 adaptors, but they give me a steep sliding scale for larger lot size orders. So far, I’ve received only one each of a 5mm & a 6mm samples, as the shop is having some difficulty slotting the run into their schedule. Perhaps a larger size order can motivate them?

Pix #2 shows the custom shaft with a long 5mm hex head screw that’s used as a puller, while a shorter & lighter screw is used to hold the spinner. Pix #3 shows the collet sleeve with built in rotor seating surface grooved for increased power transfer. The bore of the Haoye fan is oversized for standard 8mm shaft. I can have oversized shaft milled or use paper shim to snug rotor on a standard 8mm shaft. Pix #5 & #6 show stick-out of custom shaft with & without the rotor in place.

I have hung 2x5lbs dumbbells on the installed rotor as a static test without it coming loose. I know that at over 25krpm, a 10-lb static test is not enough. But I know collet adaptors are good on my TF4000 fan.

IMHO, higher power EDF motors should have at least 6mm shaft diameter, but there are not many suitable motors with this size shaft. A 5mm shaft may be adequate to transmit 4kw, but it is compromised when flats are hand-milled to secure set-screws. I understand the Neu line of motors can be ordered with 6mm shafts, but I’m not clear how rotors are secured on 8mm motor shafts. So if you gurus can enlighten me with a description or photo, I’ll be very thankful.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 12:42 PM
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Las Vegas, NV
Joined Dec 1996
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EDIT 27 May 2010: Later on when I got a 10S capable controller (turnigy), I measured on 10S 5000 Zippy H 56 amps and about 1900 watts with the Tango 45-08. This was used in my Haoye F-18 edf conversion with retracts. Level speed with no gear doors was about 95 mph, 120 in a 30 degree dive. I had a hard off field landing April 2010 and broke the fan and motor.

I've yet to test fly the jet with a new motor, Turnigy (hobbycity) 4260 800kv on 10S cells not peaked, partial dicharged), pulled 47 amps and 1700 watts. On peaked cells I might get to where I was with the Tango 45-08. The motor was getting to 160 degree on the inside during short static runs. I'll fly it up high full throttle and see if the motor survives.

Thanks for the data Phil. It was Miljenko that posted the data here and at hobbycity's site, you might want to edit your post for the correct spelling of his name. I think there's another thread here somewhere about this fan, or maybe it's mixed in with the 4.5" fan.

I ran this fan with a Kontronic Tango 45-08, kv 800, on 6s 5000s (limited in S count by controller, I've since bought a Turnigy 100 amp controller but haven't tested yet). On 6S I pulled only 26.4amps and 600 watts. Not much use there but gives some idea of the potential, and boy what a lot of air coming out the back (no exhaust tube, just a simple depron inlet lip). I've another motor to test with a slightly lower kv as well. Will put fan into a haoye F-18 that I added ducting too (what a pain in the rear, hardly worth the massive effort it took, and I'm still working on the taileron bearing mounts).
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Last edited by Ed Waldrep; May 27, 2010 at 08:16 PM. Reason: Added data obtained later
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 01:56 PM
EDF all the way!
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Gilbert, Az
Joined Jun 1999
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Flew mine today, Hacker A40-10S on an 8S nue 4300 ma pack. Pulled 32 AMPs at 25300 RPM. Flew my BobCat very well.
Bob
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 01:57 PM
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United States, MO, St Charles
Joined Nov 2002
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Hi Phil,
looking forward to seeing your results. I have a project in mind for this winter based on this fan, now all I need is a good motor. Here some results I've collected so far:

Haoye 4" Fan
Code:
Motor                   Cells                   Amps    Watts
Hacker A40-10S 		8S 4600 TP		60A	?????
Hacker A40-10S 		8S 4300 Nue		32A	?????
KB45-11XL		8S 4900 Xcell		98A	2617W
Century 650A (800kv)	10S			60A	2100W
Century 650A (800kv)	11S			64A	2300W
Hacker A40-12S		10S 3700		???	?????
Kontronic Tango 45-08	6S 5000			26.4A	600W
Dan Eaton
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Last edited by eatond; Dec 05, 2008 at 05:08 PM.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 04:27 PM
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Oshkosh, WI
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back from gym workout & chores!

Thanks Ed for correction. Glad to hear there are still interest in this; thx guys

I wanted to include the next photos.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 04:57 PM
EDF all the way!
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Gilbert, Az
Joined Jun 1999
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If you can find the old Kress foam inlets. They came with the Royal Cessna Citation kit. Those inlets are a perfect match for the 4" fan. Also I think EJF.com has vacuformed inlets for the 4" fan also.
Bob
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 05:11 PM
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Fan Graphs

Looks like the interest is more on the data, so I'll switch the order to suit

I prefer data sets for each motor from a range of RPMs, to obtain a graph. Per advice that rpm obtained from freq across the motor leads wud be accurate only at WOT, I usually run the system at different cell counts to allow such readings; though I see the Hz reading changing as the throttle is advance. For these data, I only have a 4s & 2x6s packs with 6mm connectors, so the combinations (4, 6, 10, 12) have a slight gap missing the 8s point. I should post the test set-up photos next to clarify what I had on the fan for the test.

My own data w/ the A40-10s was obtained in early fall when ambient temp was in the 70Fs. This motor clearly is too small for 12s . I may have seen a wisp of magic smoke once and motor grease has surely escaped, but it still work even if I read 180F at start of subsequent idle run at 50+watts till it was safe to shutdown.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 05:27 PM
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My data with the Neu 1521-2Y was taken when ambient temp was in the low 30F, when the pack internal resistance increased significantly as to cause LV cut-off (set at conservative 3.2v/cell). So I expect to rerun this series next spring. But the graph clearly show the in-runner motor's higher efficiency, & its graph extension will most probably show better performance over the Century650 segment I borrowed from Arngeir.

Yes, the 1521-2Y is probably overkill, but I had it for an e-Turbax apps; & was conviniently sized for a bench test. Based on my results, I'm tending to try Neu 1515-2.5Y or Medussa 36-60-880 as closer to optimum. Any suggestions?

I also included a graph from the very complete Midi data set Carl Rich shared on this forum for comparison. This & the next graph is showing the fan efficiency difference with changing fan diameter. You may notice a kink on the Midi line, which I assume due to Carl's heating his packs; which changes their internal resistance. IIRC Stu had commented long ago that measuring at the packs will get such variables unaccounted. On the other hand, most of us are more concerned with total systems kW-in data instead of those base on the Motor inputs.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 09:39 PM
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2nd fan performance graph (#2) I plotted is attached next. Here I overlaid the TF4000 fan curve from data shared by k_sonn, plus a few other points at the high end, as a composite. I actually removed a TJ100 line as I did not have an independent data source for it; & would be glad to also add in a line for the Stu fan. The Haoye4 line is truncated, as mentioned earlier, due to my pack performance at low temp triggering earlier low voltage cut-off; but a projection of the line seem to me indicating the Haoye4 fan performance nested between the 120mm and the 90mm Midi composite curves. Further, I estimate ca. 300-watts more power shifting from a larger fan to the smaller fan diameter to genrate the same amount of static thrust. Pls take this estimate losely until I can rerun the curve at near standard temperature & conditions.

For the gurus, I'm hesitant to share my rpm data as it might cause apples vs. oranges comparisons also from the large temperature differences; as the air density at freezing pt. is significantly higher than that in the 90's in Phoenix at 4000asl. While this does not affect thrust vs.Kw much, it will definitely have an effect with thrust vs. RPM.
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Old Dec 05, 2008, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruff
If you can find the old Kress foam inlets. They came with the Royal Cessna Citation kit. Those inlets are a perfect match for the 4" fan. Also I think EJF.com has vacuformed inlets for the 4" fan also.
Bob
Thanks for the info, @bruff! It may save me some time & labor. I'll check those sources out.

I did take some shots as I made the inlet lip ring seen in pix#6 above. In case one gets in a bind & need to roll one's own, my inlets are really easier to fab than my write-up below might seem:

I’ve previously posted my idea of fabricating round-lip inlet rings by laminating 3mm Depron & 1/16 sheet balsa. Now I have to add a step. A Depron sheet will provide much more rings than one need in a lifetime of fan torture testing.

Pix#7 shows an i-inch wide strip of Depron, with a couple of crease lines crushed into the material. Actually 3 lines, spaced about 4mm, are need at each end of the strip to remove the end stiffness and prevent out-of round rings. The pix also show the 2nd layer of Depron being held down with laundry cloth pins while the glue dries. I find a bead of foam friendly superglue, approx. 4mm along each lengthwise edge, plus axial beads every 2 to 3 inches of the circumference, were all that are needed to secure the laminates together.

Cross grain balsa strips are added to the inside & outside of the Depron layers. These balsa strips can be narrower than the Depron strips to stagger the edge for rounding the lip. To cut down even more on the sanding job, I dab some light weight spackle to blend the steps from the balsa strip to the Depron. The inner balsa strip width is narrow and butts against the shroud. One can adjust the thickness of the inner balsa to ensure no abrupt stept at the butt joint; or just use sandpaper to knock down the inner sharp corner of the shroud.
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Old Dec 06, 2008, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruff
Flew mine today, Hacker A40-10S on an 8S nue 4300 ma pack. Pulled 32 AMPs at 25300 RPM. Flew my BobCat very well.
Bob
Bob, just wanted to confirm that you are running the A40-10s, 14-poles, Kv750 motor that I bench test? I understand they have a -10L kv1100 8-pole as well. TIA.

Phil
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Old Dec 06, 2008, 11:48 AM
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orlando florida
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I have both the 4.5" and 5" fans from Hoaye. I did a bench test on the 5" fans to get thrust. I used the the KB 17-XL 700kv motors from HC. I ran the fans on a Turnigy 100A HV, 6S 5000 TP and I was able to get 5lbs of thrust at about 1350watts, with no ducting. I missed the amp draw but when I spool them up again I will post it. I plan on changing the motors to the Scorpion HK 4035-800kv on 10 S with this setup and should get about 9-10lbs of thrust.
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