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Old Nov 21, 2008, 06:13 PM
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Has this thread gone awry?

All right - this thread started with a specific topic: an event for histart launched 60" span sailplanes. Now, the topic of altitude limiting ESCs for electric-powered sailplanes has reared its head. Altitude limiting ESCs belong in the Electric Sailplane forum. It is an important topic, which, IMHO, is an important item for the future of electric soaring. However, it just muddies the waters of an otherwise fine discussion here.
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Old Nov 21, 2008, 07:35 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Deck
All right - this thread started with a specific topic: an event for histart launched 60" span sailplanes. Now, the topic of altitude limiting ESCs for electric-powered sailplanes has reared its head. Altitude limiting ESCs belong in the Electric Sailplane forum. It is an important topic, which, IMHO, is an important item for the future of electric soaring. However, it just muddies the waters of an otherwise fine discussion here.
I apologize. I was just responding to some guys who seemed to be looking for a way to accomplish a similar objective -- and I was too polite to tell them to go somewhere else.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Nov 21, 2008, 08:55 PM
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Another good reason to throw, although it's far more important WHEN (not "than") winch launching, is that if you get a gust right when you release, you have very little airspeed to give you control authority. Perhaps those of us who can't throw well should glue a couple of straws to the side of our glider and launch sliding off a rod like the rocket guys do.

(BTW, I think I know how to beat the 2 min run, but that's too OT for here)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John255
Aeajr,

Completely agree with your definitions of the three launchers. I notice you quoted my post which says the ZIP-Start, hi-start and mini (up) start are all different. This has been pointed out also in other post. Maybe Scott is using the term ZIP because he feels it will do away with much of the walking.

This thread started out talking about launching 1.5M and smaller planes. Your videos are great examples of what's going on. One thing I noticed is nearly all of the launches are done by just opening the grip and and let the standard hi-start jerk the plane into the air.

Couple reasons this is not good with the weaker mini/up-start is first you are dumping a percentage of stored energy in the rubber to get the plane to kite speed, and more important without a good heave with the 1.5M HL' the cruciform tail is headed right for the back of your hand. Don't ask!

The picture shows what I'm talking about. The problem is worse if you launch with nose high. However, when you give a good heave with nose slightly above horizon you arm gets out of the way and you get about 20' more launch height.
Regards,
John255
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Old Nov 21, 2008, 09:00 PM
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Lincoln,
Go ahead man!
Let's don't be frightened by information that may jog thinking, or from self appointed thread cops. Hugh catfish are caught in the muddiest water.
What's your idea?
John255
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Old Nov 21, 2008, 09:10 PM
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We could always involved the R/C car guys and have them tow our planes to altitude using their cars!
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 12:49 AM
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I can see from what I have read that I will take a serious look into a mini start. We will be back to basics, back to inexpensive, back to fun, and back to informal rules and that was the whole idea to begin with. I fly electric but wanted to get back to my roots and love for the 1.5 M class.
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 08:21 AM
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Gambler

Scott,
Yes there's a lot to be said for 1.5M and smaller with upstart. Also within that group the one design idea also has merit.

The one I like for price, simple design, easy build, and excellent flyer is the 50" Gambler AG kit. Allan also makes a small motor pod for the AG.
http://www.wrightbrothersrc.com/products/gambler.htm

I did a wing mod build thread stretching the 50" to full 1.5M 60".
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=946404

In the air the AG looks like, and flys like a mini-Gentle Lady.
John255
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 08:43 AM
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I really like the idea of a one design airplane. I have seen this is other events like the electric cars and boats and it has worked out really well. At one boat contest I was at the one design had over 3 times more people than all the other events combined. The reason it was so big was no one had an advantage over the other. Now comes the fun of getting everyone to agree on the airplane.
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 09:28 AM
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I just looked at the Gambler and it is a fantastic as well as beautiful airplane. The only problem I can see is that it can tax the new builder and glassing is something that most do not want to get into. john255 you have above average building skills. When I owned my glider shop the plane I sold every new pilot was the 2X4 by House of Balsa.

http://www.houseofbalsa.com/store/st...VNVCnorQM3r0x6

This plane can be built by a new builder with no problems, it will take standard gear, the fuse is of ply construction and built like a tank, very forgiving and easily repaired. The leading edge is a dowel and has a flat bottom air foil. It makes a great conversion to electric and when you modify it you have a glider that is second to none in looks. I was in Wyoming at the time and like Oklahoma the wind blew 24-7, the extra weight was good for penetrating the wind,. If this sounds like I sold on the 2X4 you would be correct. I would like to hear from others after they have looked over the planes offered as well as others that are not on the list.
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 12:13 PM
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Scott,
Thanks for complement.

I can see why you'd like an all balsa plane that would build in 6 hours. I'd never seen the specks on the 2X4 before.

Man that's a heavy weather bird. At 28oz. it weighs 3oz. more than a 2M Gentle Lady.

The 1.5M HL planes average about 9~11oz. And a heavy Gambler would be about 7oz.

The launch heights I've been quoting are for planes in this weight range. On light wind days you'd get a fairly lazy launch on Mini/up-start with a 28oz. ship. In a stiff breeze you'd probably be the only one able to fly though.
Regards,
John255
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 01:02 PM
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That plane made a believer out of me. I have seen them come in nose first and not damage one thing. I had one get away from me in really high winds and I was able to keep it nose first until it went out of sight. We found it 2 hours later about a mile away and the only damage was one broken rib and torn covering. It was a 30 minute repair. I had really considered in doing a step by step modified build as when modified it truly is a beautiful and extremely well flying plane both as an electric or thermal plane off a mini start.
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 01:13 PM
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Scott,
Sounds interesting.
Would really like to see what your modifications look like.
On Thursday I was launching a Gentle Lady on my mini-start to about 125'.
John255
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 01:24 PM
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I have heard of the 2X4 and 2X6 but never looked them over.

If you live in a windy area, then I can see how the 2X4s weight might work in your favor, but at 9.8 oz/sqft loading is very high for a glider of that span. I like the 2X6 better at under 8 oz wing loading. At 72" it exceeds your 1.5M goal by about 12", but I would find that a more attractive plane.


For those who like foam, the Easy Glider has been the basis of one design contests all over the country. Does well in small areas. Hard to break and easy to fix.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXKHS7&P=7


If you are going with mini hi-start launching, the Fling is fun. Comes with it's own min-hi-start, or it can be flown as a hand launched glider. This would be a cheap one design ARF.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXGVW2&P=7

Another that would work well for mini hi-start would be the DL-50 from Mountain Models. The foam wing means simple build. They call for glassing but you use Minwax water based PolyCrylic instead of epoxy. Soooo easy to do. Just put a hook on it and off you go.
http://www.mountainmodels.com/produc...roducts_id=212

I agree the Gambler is a better plane than the DL-50 but harder to build because you have to build and cover the wing.


The Skybench Bird II at 60" would be great choice and Skybench's reputation for kits is excellent. One of our club members has the Little Bird II and it is amazing!
http://www.skybench.com/slhand.html

Wing Span: 60" Wing Area: 352 sq. in.
Airfoil: S3014
Flying Weight: 7 to 10 oz. Wing loading: 3.5 oz or less


The Illusion might be of interest:
http://www.mmglidertech.com/Illusion.htm


I think Art Hobby was mentioned earlier. They have a nice selection of 1.5M planes.
http://www.arthobby.com/shop.html
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 03:02 PM
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John the 125 ft. is more than enough in a small park. The 2X4 was picked because it is easy to build for the first time builder and is inexpensive. The stock 2X4 can have at least half the weight cut by cutting holes in the ply sides and put in another leading edge and using micro gear. I believe the specs are for standard gear.

When I modified mine I would make the wing center section as is. On the tips I would turn the plans over and build with a taper going the opposite direction and make the wing tips removable. I would lengthen the nose by about 1 1/2 inches and make a full formed canopy out of balsa, the canopy would come up over the wing and go back about 2 inches past the leading edge. Make new sides out of balsa and put in at least 3/4 in triangle stock in the back of the fuse so you can round it. The only tricky part is making an all flying horizontal stab and is removable. Reshape the vertical stab and put the wing hold downs in the center of the two center bulkheads so that the rubber bands only run down the center of the wings. When this thing is done you have a first class competitor for this event. This all sounds very time consuming but it is not, only requires another 2 hours or so. I also narrowed the fuse for micro gear and removed the excess material between the wing ribs on the spruce dowel.
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Old Nov 22, 2008, 03:05 PM
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Good show!

Aeajr,
Very fine run down of available planes for mini-start. Have built several of them.
The GP Fling sure looks great in comparison being already covered, light, excellent price. I think there are threads to mod the pull-pull strings to control rods that give some folks a fit. How could you go wrong for a one-design. However, there is another heavier, glass, HL Fling by GP that's seen a lot of complaint on the threads.

[QUOTE=aeajr]
I agree the Gambler is a better plane than the DL-50 but harder to build because you have to build and cover the wing. [QUOTE]

There maybe something to that, but on the Gambler build thread for last couple years I notice new builders seem to get by the wing pretty good, but what throws the fear of God in them is glassing the pod. The instructions are OK, but more pictures of this step would help. I recommend a practice run on a broomstick handle to find out how easy it really is. I don't think one of them has done that. Must be like going out with another woman on your wedding night.

After reading your post, if we considered one-design here I think I'd go for a Fling. Many of our young guys just don't much time for building.
Regards,
John255
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