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Old Oct 29, 2008, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLATINUM
Improving on the MaXir is serious business. That heli is just about perfect as is.
The main improvement of the Ricco over the Maxir, is improved servo layout for less swash interaction. The Maxir's side slung front servos induced some angle to the linkages unless short servo arms were used, which come with their own set of less linear throw issues.

While some of us overcame the issue (flipped front servos with longer linkages, longer control horns, outside-the-box thinking on linkage geometry offset compensation, etc), the Ricco out of the box has much straighter linkages and is easier to achieve true 90deg interfaces at zero pitch.

-Kai
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Old Oct 30, 2008, 08:34 AM
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I look forward to some flight video if at all possible
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Old Nov 02, 2008, 08:53 PM
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Review Updates:

OK the weather still isn't on my side but I have finally made it outdoors with my Ricco a few times. The heli is settled in and I believe there is far less friction and noise then when I first setup the heli. As a result everything is much smoother now and I have been able to dial up the gain on the GY401 a bit more and I have also reduced the delay a bit.

I should note that I'm rather slow and methodical when it comes to learning my new birds and getting them tuned to how like them. My Hornet took me a good 3 months to do this during prime flying weather, needless to say I won't have the same luxury with the Ricco with winter coming but after half a dozen outdoor flights I don't think my tunning curve will take as long with the Ricco. The head and curves are easier to setup then the Hornet and when it comes to tracking the Ricco seems to have more precision in the link adjustments.

As I mentioned in my original post I am running the AXI 2208/20 paired with a 15T pinion which should land me in the 2700-2800RPM range. Since I am giving an honest review I have done all my flying up to this point with just the plastic blades included with the kit. To play it safe I have the headspeed dialed back to 2000-2100RPM via the throttle curve.

The plastic blades have surprised me a bit, they are indeed heavy and not as responsive to cyclic response but on the Ricco they are still good cruising blades which do allow you to do very basic aero such as loops, flips, and rolls. The Ricco was better suited to this mornings gusty winds which ranged from 9-13MPH then I could ever remember my Hornet or old Esky King handling. The heli still required a serious nose down push and some higher throttle and pitch to push upwind and down wind runs could almost be done with little pitch and just a touch of forward elevator. The climb rate is very good even with the heavy plastic blades, my climb is quicker with my Ricco at 2100RPM as my Hornet X3D was with my 2208/20 25T configuration ( this is considered the stock Hornet X3D config)

Power consumption is getting better and I believe it will settle in at this point, I have yet to attach the eagletree to log power consumption but after 10min of spirited cruising with some mild aero mixed in I'm using about 600-650mah with my current headspeed and blade configuration.

Ideal flight conditions would certainly be winds 9MPH or less for most people , in 6MPH or less you really don't notice the wind much.

More reports to come, I plan to change out the plastic blades for the FG blades and I plan to crank up the headspeed, to this point I like what I see.
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Old Nov 02, 2008, 10:25 PM
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Awesome report Raynet11,

Be careful with the gyro gain, you'll want to make sure to dial it back some when you crank up the headspeed.

-Kai
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Old Nov 03, 2008, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai_Shiden
Awesome report Raynet11,

Be careful with the gyro gain, you'll want to make sure to dial it back some when you crank up the headspeed.

-Kai
Thanks.. I'm used to the pitfalls of a shaft driven heli and tail wiggle.. My standard operating procedure for changing out pinions and motors on my Hornet X3D has been to drop the gain on the 401 by 10-15 prior to liftoff to avoid the heli shaking itself into oblivion. More often then not this has worked out quite well, I guess a little tail tweeking is the cost of admission over not having to worry about another belt snapping mid flight.
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 10:25 AM
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Pleasant Valley Modelport
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I like that 2208/20. 0.8 amp IO. Look at most generic motors in that size and you find ~2.5 amps IO, the 2208/20 is 0.8. What that means is with the 2.5 amp IO, you will waste about 1/2 the capacity of a 1000mah battery to simply spin the motor with no load. in 10 minutes at 2.5 amps IO, it would use ~430mah from the battery, and no heli power from it. As if you only had a 570mah battery.
0.8 amps IO would be 133 mah in 10 minutes, leaving 867 mah for the heli.
That 0.8 amps is at 8V, so it would probably be closer to 1 amp at 10V, the usual call.

CH
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chophop
I like that 2208/20. 0.8 amp IO. Look at most generic motors in that size and you find ~2.5 amps IO, the 2208/20 is 0.8. What that means is with the 2.5 amp IO, you will waste about 1/2 the capacity of a 1000mah battery to simply spin the motor with no load. in 10 minutes at 2.5 amps IO, it would use ~430mah from the battery, and no heli power from it. As if you only had a 570mah battery.
0.8 amps IO would be 133 mah in 10 minutes, leaving 867 mah for the heli.
That 0.8 amps is at 8V, so it would probably be closer to 1 amp at 10V, the usual call.

CH
The 2208/20 is a good all around motor, it gives a nice balance of duration and power it is probably the most balanced motor I have used in any heli.

I have used this motor in both my Hornet X3D and Ricco with great success in both. The gear ratio is almost identical between the two helis though they use opposite methods to get there. The Hornet (in stock form) uses a 25T pinion and a 180T main which produces a gear ratio of 7.2 to 1. My Ricco on the other hand is using a 15T pinion against a 110T main which produces a gear ratio of 7.3 to 1.

Target headspeed on both models is between 2500-2700, the 2208/20 can bog and will bog if pushed hard but nothing comes close in terms of run times, the timer on both my Ricco and Hornet are in the 10min range and I still have plenty of gas in the tank left after the buzzer sounds (1000mah packs used on the Hornet and 1300mah packs used on the Ricco).
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 02:29 PM
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Meridian, ID.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chophop
I like that 2208/20. 0.8 amp IO. Look at most generic motors in that size and you find ~2.5 amps IO, the 2208/20 is 0.8. What that means is with the 2.5 amp IO, you will waste about 1/2 the capacity of a 1000mah battery to simply spin the motor with no load. in 10 minutes at 2.5 amps IO, it would use ~430mah from the battery, and no heli power from it. As if you only had a 570mah battery.
0.8 amps IO would be 133 mah in 10 minutes, leaving 867 mah for the heli.
That 0.8 amps is at 8V, so it would probably be closer to 1 amp at 10V, the usual call.

CH
Could you use this Scorpion motor in the Ricco with the right gearing? http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/the-35...s-Motor/Detail

The IO is even lower? I use the one I have in my Skeeter 30. Good power and efficiency.
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamej
Could you use this Scorpion motor in the Ricco with the right gearing? http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/the-35...s-Motor/Detail

The IO is even lower?
Not yet, unless you want to use a metal pinion.

Let me explain, LAheli pinions for the Maxir/Ricco are made to press onto 3.17mm (1/8") motor shafts and are made of plastic. They are made to be fuses in the case of a crash to remove power from the drivetrain to limit damage (through thousands of flights and dozens of crashes, I have yet to have to replace a maingear from crash damage, only cheap/easy to replace pinions).

The motor you listed has a 2.97mm shaft, LAheli is going to be making a test run of 3mm pinions that are going to be shipped to Pete @ Elektrorc.com for testing with just that sort of motor (to expand the motor options that can be used on Maxirs).

There are 0.4mod metal pinions that will work with 3mm motor shafts, but I have found that setscrew pinions do not run as true as the pressed on plastic ones and tend to both tear up the maingear in crashes, and wear out the maingear faster than the factory plastic pinions (brass or stainless pinions that attach with green loctite work pretty well but will still tear up the maingear in crashes).

-Kai
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 02:52 PM
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I think (just a theory) that if a wide range of motor combinations were made available to the Ricco and Maxir just like say your average 325mm (450 sized) heli I think after all the tinkering and combo experimenting many would (in the end) return back to the AXI power systems, there just so well balanced.

This (motor selection) is one option that I believe my Hornet has an advantage over the Ricco. The high strung Scorpion I used in my Hornet (3900Kv) provides insane power and you (I ) can't burn off enough Kv while being sloppy on the collective to notice compared to the 2208/20. At 330g I'm not sure if my Ricco can touch it in terms of sheer power but then again I spent 6 months tweaking and modding my Hornet to get it to that weight and literally threw components off to the side and bought new ones just to get the weight down (and no bling).

So the difference of what "can" be done and what's typical are two different things, my Hornet as built (the first time) came in at 375g and suffered from bog and sluggish cyclic (my fault bad setup). My Ricco on the other hand flies like a dream out of the box I really haven't modded anything yet nor have I gone into my usual creative weight reduction campaigns.
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 02:57 PM
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Forgot to mention, that if all you are looking at is IO and KV, you'll not come up with a good match for a heli, you need to look at all 3 major motor stats (IO, RM, and KV), as well as what type of flying you wish to do (long duration hover - mild circuits - fast aggressive circuits - acrobatic flight - mild 3D - hard 3D - insanely hard 3d , in order of flight duration from longest to shortest).

Pick the most aggressive type of flight you wish to accomplish and everything below that can be done on the same motor (albeit with shorter duration than a motor dedicated to that purpose).

Lower IO is not necessarily an indicator of a good heli motor (if a motor uses smaller wire with more turns, it's KV and IO will be lower, and RM higher, than an equivalent motor using less turns of larger wire).

KV vs Gear ratio also plays into how well a motor will work out for it's intended application. It's a tradeoff, ideally 1:1 gears would have the best mesh/gearloss, but you would have to have such a rediculously low KV motor that it wouldn't be able to spin it effectively. High numerical advantage would lessen the load on the motor, at the expense of higher gearloss and gearwear (smaller pinions have harsher teeth angles). Somewhere in the middle is a happy place that needs to be reached (on a Maxir, 15 tooth seems to be a sweet spot for the 3D end of things).

A suggested read for anyone interested in going with different motors in any heli is some of the fantastic spreadsheet work done by KC right here on RCG:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=933254
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232166

-Kai

P.S. I have run 6 different motor combos on my Maxirs, I do keep settling back on the 2208/20 for 3cell, but run an E-flite 370 1360KV outrunner on 4cell (as opposed to running a 2208/26). Going 4cell dramatically increases power while duration stays the same due to increased efficency under load.
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynet11
This (motor selection) is one option that I believe my Hornet has an advantage over the Ricco. The high strung Scorpion I used in my Hornet (3900Kv) provides insane power and you (I ) can't burn off enough Kv while being sloppy on the collective to notice compared to the 2208/20. At 330g I'm not sure if my Ricco can touch it in terms of sheer power but then again I spent 6 months tweaking and modding my Hornet to get it to that weight and literally threw components off to the side and bought new ones just to get the weight down (and no bling).
I agree that the 180 tooth maingear of the Hornet allows it much more flexibility in motor choices (it unfortunately also makes the hornet harder to get CG on since the motor is spaced further away from the mainshaft).

Something not mentioned (for reference to other people viewing this thread), is that the Maxir/Ricco run a comparitively small 110 tooth maingear, and has motor mount options both infront and behind the maingear. Attaining CG on a Maxir/Ricco with small or large batteries is a cinch because of this flexibility (however, finding good alternate motors is a bit tricky because of the limited range of workable motor KV, also due to that small maingear).

-Kai
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai_Shiden
I agree that the 180 tooth maingear of the Hornet allows it much more flexibility in motor choices (it unfortunately also makes the hornet harder to get CG on since the motor is spaced further away from the mainshaft).

Something not mentioned (for reference to other people viewing this thread), is that the Maxir/Ricco run a comparitively small 110 tooth maingear, and has motor mount options both infront and behind the maingear. Attaining CG on a Maxir/Ricco with small or large batteries is a cinch because of this flexibility (however, finding good alternate motors is a bit tricky because of the limited range of workable motor KV, also due to that small maingear).

-Kai
I agree, it is not well noted (or advertised) that the Ricco / Maxir has dual mounting points for the motor, it's as if they thought of everything and then some.

When I changed the 2208/20 on my Hornet for the lighter scorpion (weight loss in terms of motor and pinion, the 25T Hornet pinion is quite heavy) I had spot on CG but prior to that I had to shift the Rx and gyro around and even considered throwing a heavier servo on the tail to hit the CG. The problem seems to easy to solve until you realize there isn't much room to work with and the Hornet is a stubby little heli to begin with.

The Ricco allows for some battery adjustment and motor adjustment which really gives you a lot of battery options and or motor options is need be.
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 03:43 PM
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Kai,
Couldn't somebody buy a 3.17 shaft from a Scorpion HKseries motors and machine it down to .297 to run through the motor as normal? It looks like the shafts on the outrunners sticks out both sides, so the machining would not have to be that critical.
What KV range on 3 cells will work for the plastic pinions of LAHeli? Could you get the gearing to workout correctly then? It would open up more motor options.
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Old Nov 04, 2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamej
Kai,
Couldn't somebody buy a 3.17 shaft from a Scorpion HKseries motors and machine it down to .297 to run through the motor as normal? It looks like the shafts on the outrunners sticks out both sides, so the machining would not have to be that critical.
What KV range on 3 cells will work for the plastic pinions of LAHeli? Could you get the gearing to workout correctly then? It would open up more motor options.
While that sounds simple enough, it's much "harder" in practice (because any motor worth it's salt uses a hardened shaft which has to be precision ground down instead of machine lathed). Easier to just wait for the LAheli 3mm pinions (or use metal locktite bonded pinions).

LAheli offers 3.17mm pinions in 14 tooth through 26 tooth, however I have found the 14 tooth to not have enough tooth strength to survive high loadings (ie, not a good 3D flight pinion). I have personally flown my Maxirs from 1700rpm headspeed all the way to 3200rpm.

As mentioned, generic KV ranges by themselves are more confusing than anything else and should not be viewed alone (seriously, experiment with KC's spreadsheet, it's the closest simulation method I've found to slapping a motor into a heli and just trying it out). For a strong motor (rated to 16A peaks) on 15 tooth pinion, 2000KV is about the upper limit, for a basic tooling around (ie hover/cruise) then the Axi 2208/26 and 18 tooth is hard to beat (1420KV, that combo gives over 20min hover duration).

It should be noted, I have always recommended that people start on Maxirs with the recommended motors (Axi 2208/20 for 3D, or Axi 2208/26 for beginner duration/circuits/mild acro). Flight times on either factory recommended motor is more than adequate (about 2x the duration of most mini-heli setups, in both cases).

Yet, at the same time I have even tried out inexpensive motor options, this flight for instance is on a $15 Suppo 2208/12 motor from LightFlightrc:
Maxir SE on $15 motor (2 min 32 sec)

(it turned out to be a decent motor, but requires a bit of tweaking to fit a Maxir/Ricco).

-Kai

P.S. Before this goes too far off the subject of the Ricco Review (sorry Raynet11), motor discussion should probably be moved to the thread that already has much of this info in it already Maxir Headspeed info thread
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