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Old Jan 05, 2013, 06:20 PM
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Back in Hong Kong
Joined Sep 2003
964 Posts
here is my silly question...

I think I have updated my firmware to the latest.

it shows Recorder 5.92/seagull 4.83/ OSD 2.51 /EE 1.18 / Guardian 1.19.

does that sound correct... I thought it would display version 10.04
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Old Jan 05, 2013, 10:27 PM
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m_beeson's Avatar
United States, UT
Joined Jan 2011
3,365 Posts
I think when you fire it up, the boot screen will show the overall version, but each component has it's own version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornant View Post
here is my silly question...

I think I have updated my firmware to the latest.

it shows Recorder 5.92/seagull 4.83/ OSD 2.51 /EE 1.18 / Guardian 1.19.

does that sound correct... I thought it would display version 10.04
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 11:49 AM
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Suomi, Espoo
Joined Sep 2011
158 Posts
RTH banking hard - 80 deg

Hi,
During maiden of Skywalker 1900 with osdpro, guardian and elogger v3, I did not use stabilization. I also tested RTH using Carlyle method. Is stabilization (guardian) used for RTH when stabilization is off during normal flight, or not?

If no, then I understand why I noticed 80-90 deg banking during RTH tests with all gain and PID settings at default (except rth pitch and roll both set to max 35 instead of default 25). If yes, I guess I should decrease roll gain?

Without stabilization, plane flew beautifully, needing only two clicks of left trim.

SkyWalker1900 maiden Jan 5, 2013 (6 min 1 sec)


Two rth tests in video. Any ideas?
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 07:36 PM
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m_beeson's Avatar
United States, UT
Joined Jan 2011
3,365 Posts
If you set the gains in the menu for normal flight, then you dial them down on aux 2, then it will default to the menu gains for rth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstjern View Post
Hi,
During maiden of Skywalker 1900 with osdpro, guardian and elogger v3, I did not use stabilization. I also tested RTH using Carlyle method. Is stabilization (guardian) used for RTH when stabilization is off during normal flight, or not?

If no, then I understand why I noticed 80-90 deg banking during RTH tests with all gain and PID settings at default (except rth pitch and roll both set to max 35 instead of default 25). If yes, I guess I should decrease roll gain?

Without stabilization, plane flew beautifully, needing only two clicks of left trim.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-O2LzW2o-gw

Two rth tests in video. Any ideas?
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 11:21 PM
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Suomi, Espoo
Joined Sep 2011
158 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_beeson View Post
If you set the gains in the menu for normal flight, then you dial them down on aux 2, then it will default to the menu gains for rth.
Thanks. I had turned stabilization/elevon mix to "off". I re-read the manual and found only implicit info that rth stabilization is also off in my case. As aux2 is also my camera tilt, I will try flying with stabilization only during center stick, size 1 and see how it goes.
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 12:05 AM
If it's to be, it's up to me.
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstjern View Post
Thanks. I had turned stabilization/elevon mix to "off". I re-read the manual and found only implicit info that rth stabilization is also off in my case. As aux2 is also my camera tilt, I will try flying with stabilization only during center stick, size 1 and see how it goes.
Whatever you do, you need a way to turn stabilisation off as required, though a spearate gain channel or centre stick stabilisation are your only options with the Guardian system it seems.

This weekend I made the mistake of setting mine up per the manual with stabilisation values of; roll:5, pitch:5, overall:5 (reduced from 8). It was definitely over damped, but the real problem arose when I got too slow and it stalled. I fought the spin all the way to the ground with model destoryed. There was nothing I could have done to stop the spin once it had started.

I should have known not to set up a flight control system without a way of switching it off.

I really wish I'd had the option of having stabilisation on only for RTH. There doesn't seem to be a way to do that without assigning an extra channel (which I don't have)
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 12:27 AM
Dreamer
Australia, TAS, Memana
Joined Aug 2004
2,142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsonic View Post
Whatever you do, you need a way to turn stabilisation off as required, though a spearate gain channel or centre stick stabilisation are your only options with the Guardian system it seems.

This weekend I made the mistake of setting mine up per the manual with stabilisation values of; roll:5, pitch:5, overall:5 (reduced from 8). It was definitely over damped, but the real problem arose when I got too slow and it stalled. I fought the spin all the way to the ground with model destoryed. There was nothing I could have done to stop the spin once it had started.

I should have known not to set up a flight control system without a way of switching it off.

I really wish I'd had the option of having stabilisation on only for RTH. There doesn't seem to be a way to do that without assigning an extra channel (which I don't have)
So the stabilization would have been feeding in opposite aileron to the spin that would not have had a negative effect, but it would also have been trying to feed in elevator to correct the loss of altitude ?? .... bad !! Was there an additional issue of rearward CG ?
Even with stabilize set up for effect only around neutral the effect would have been diabolical once the plane dropped into a spin. The only way out would have been to nail the throttle and manually push in down elevator.
Most airframes will not lock into a spin unless marginal stability or rearward CG.
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 03:36 AM
If it's to be, it's up to me.
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaz1104 View Post
So the stabilization would have been feeding in opposite aileron to the spin that would not have had a negative effect, but it would also have been trying to feed in elevator to correct the loss of altitude ?? .... bad !! Was there an additional issue of rearward CG ?
Even with stabilize set up for effect only around neutral the effect would have been diabolical once the plane dropped into a spin. The only way out would have been to nail the throttle and manually push in down elevator.
Most airframes will not lock into a spin unless marginal stability or rearward CG.
Hi Kaz.

My cub had three flights on it, only the last one with the guardian active. The first one was used to set the trims and just get a feel for it (guardian off). I did a few spins and had normal recovery just by centering the sticks. I moved the CG back for the second flight, and found that it still had positive pitch stability. A spin was still easily recovered after about one turn just by centering the stick.

The third and last was the first with Guardian turned on. On takeoff, I found the plane very sluggish and felt that a stick input would result in an angle change, not a rate change like I was used to. I didn't like it, but decided to just do a short flight and test RTH once within LOS. As I was climning to a safe altitude, I let the speed drop too much. As I initiated a left turn while flying too slow, it stalled and settled into a spin.

The first thing I tried was to neutralise the controls. I was instantly aware that that did not produce the normal response, and I then wished for a way to turn off the guardian. Knowing that I couldn't turn it off, I tried foward stick pressure. This didn't work either, so with about 100' to go I nailed the throttle to try and wake it up that way. Obviously this made things worse in terms of damage, but it was a last resort. It crashed with full power on. (about 600W)

I'm annoyed with the fact that there is no way to have the guardian only active during RTH without dedicating another channel to it. (I only have 8, so no spares). I'm also equally annoyed with myself for setting up an aircraft this way without really thinking it through, though if you read the guardian manual, it pretty much advocates the setup I used.

Anyway, new cub is already on the way, and the second build will no doubt be much quicker than the first.

Sub
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 04:42 AM
Dreamer
Australia, TAS, Memana
Joined Aug 2004
2,142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsonic View Post
Hi Kaz.

My cub had three flights on it, only the last one with the guardian active. The first one was used to set the trims and just get a feel for it (guardian off). I did a few spins and had normal recovery just by centering the sticks. I moved the CG back for the second flight, and found that it still had positive pitch stability. A spin was still easily recovered after about one turn just by centering the stick.

The third and last was the first with Guardian turned on. On takeoff, I found the plane very sluggish and felt that a stick input would result in an angle change, not a rate change like I was used to. I didn't like it, but decided to just do a short flight and test RTH once within LOS. As I was climning to a safe altitude, I let the speed drop too much. As I initiated a left turn while flying too slow, it stalled and settled into a spin.

The first thing I tried was to neutralise the controls. I was instantly aware that that did not produce the normal response, and I then wished for a way to turn off the guardian. Knowing that I couldn't turn it off, I tried foward stick pressure. This didn't work either, so with about 100' to go I nailed the throttle to try and wake it up that way. Obviously this made things worse in terms of damage, but it was a last resort. It crashed with full power on. (about 600W)

I'm annoyed with the fact that there is no way to have the guardian only active during RTH without dedicating another channel to it. (I only have 8, so no spares). I'm also equally annoyed with myself for setting up an aircraft this way without really thinking it through, though if you read the guardian manual, it pretty much advocates the setup I used.

Anyway, new cub is already on the way, and the second build will no doubt be much quicker than the first.

Sub
Hey Sub,
That's all pretty concerning. The flight stabilizers of many years ago used to fight the pilot to the point that it was a huge handicap, rather than a help. Flew a guys "trainer" where he insisted the stabilizing was a great thing and was "essential". Went very close to causing a crash. The new generation units should not act in this way. I have yet to test my fpv plane with the guardian setup. Its there purely for rth in the even of a failure of video or a r/c failsafe. You have me even more worried now ...
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 05:07 AM
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United States, UT
Joined Jan 2011
3,365 Posts
If you want stabilization only to run in RTH, then you could do the following.

1) turn on stabilization and mixing.

2) set sticks for 3pos (rth) (for calibration period)

3)set gains on guardian so it flies comfortably and does not display any odd tendencies.

4)calibrate / test / calibrate RTH

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When all is tested and functions well

set switching method to 2pos and 3pos

designate the 2pos to a dial, and dial the gains down (leave everything else as it is).

Now you can use the dial to turn gains up, or turn gains off.

Set your failsafes on your radio, and I would suggest setting the failsafe to the dial as you would normally fly in stabilized flight.

(if your radio supports failsafe on that channel)

also:

*when making substantial changes to your plane it is a good practice to run servo analysis wizzard, and train it to the new changes.



This is the process that I would take to fly that bird unstabilized, but rely on stabilized RTH.

-Mike


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstjern View Post
Thanks. I had turned stabilization/elevon mix to "off". I re-read the manual and found only implicit info that rth stabilization is also off in my case. As aux2 is also my camera tilt, I will try flying with stabilization only during center stick, size 1 and see how it goes.
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 06:59 AM
Just FPV'n
Orange County Ca.
Joined Feb 2009
571 Posts
Here is how I setup a 3-position switch and the Guardian on a variable switch..
I hope this helps..

Go here...
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=9940
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 11:39 AM
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Suomi, Espoo
Joined Sep 2011
158 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_beeson View Post
If you want stabilization only to run in RTH, then you could do the following.

1) turn on stabilization and mixing.

2) set sticks for 3pos (rth) (for calibration period)

3)set gains on guardian so it flies comfortably and does not display any odd tendencies.
...
Good summary, Mike, but there's one 'but'.
With a new airframe or after changing servo types (and speed of those) I want to take off without stabilization. I've crashed on take-off twice launching with stabilization after modifications to the plane. I don't want to risk take-off for a maiden or after a mod with stabilization. I want to engage stabilization at altitude duing first flight and possibly de-engage quickly indeed! (That cub crash sucks, sympathies!)

Billpa, if you're listening, pls separate stabilization on/off setting in menus for normal flight and rth (disabled if wing type set to elevon, of course).

Again, thanks or clarifying the current two options. After thinking about it, I'll likely disconnect camera tilt and use aux2 for gain during test flights only, instead of using center stick.
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 12:43 PM
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m_beeson's Avatar
United States, UT
Joined Jan 2011
3,365 Posts
good point.

I in fact did that on my last plane for maiden

I set level on the bench, then

I initially put it on 2pos + 3pos, and I dialed down the gains.

then I dialed up the gains after take off.

after that I moved it over to 2pos (rth), and began my calibrations.

-Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstjern View Post
Good summary, Mike, but there's one 'but'.
With a new airframe or after changing servo types (and speed of those) I want to take off without stabilization. I've crashed on take-off twice launching with stabilization after modifications to the plane. I don't want to risk take-off for a maiden or after a mod with stabilization. I want to engage stabilization at altitude duing first flight and possibly de-engage quickly indeed! (That cub crash sucks, sympathies!)

Billpa, if you're listening, pls separate stabilization on/off setting in menus for normal flight and rth (disabled if wing type set to elevon, of course).

Again, thanks or clarifying the current two options. After thinking about it, I'll likely disconnect camera tilt and use aux2 for gain during test flights only, instead of using center stick.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 10:33 AM
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Joined Oct 2008
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OSD Pro Software Update Request… 65 Km distance limit!

unfortunately and after waiting several weeks for a simple correction resolved for this osd....

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...+distanc+limit



we decided to change the navigation system to RVOSD.....

in a few days we expect to exceed our team record
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 11:41 AM
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m_beeson's Avatar
United States, UT
Joined Jan 2011
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I love your setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjsueldo View Post
unfortunately and after waiting several weeks for a simple correction resolved for this osd....

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...+distanc+limit



we decided to change the navigation system to RVOSD.....

in a few days we expect to exceed our team record
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