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Old Jan 14, 2012, 03:05 PM
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Yep, time fly's when you can't. Thanks Mel for reposting.

Feel free to write whatever you like and send it in (be professional and respectful). Just say something.
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 07:37 PM
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Is there anyone here that thinks it will be any more lenient than 400' and visual with a buddy box?
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 07:51 PM
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I'm a realist, I'm just trying to fly FPV until the inmates regulate us out of existance. I'm also wondering why the companies that sell the FPV gear arent screaming about this ???
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Deadstick 8409 View Post
Is there anyone here that thinks it will be any more lenient than 400' and visual with a buddy box?
Maybe sans buddy box (but still a spotter), but otherwise, no I expect it to be no more
lenient, and possibly quite a lot worse, to the point of effectively being totally outlawed
"in the wild". Some of the recommendations in the original sUAS proposal
would basically require a "crew" of well rested, licensed pilot and licensed spotter
to fly anything bigger than a Slow Stick.

ian
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 08:29 PM
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I don't know cause they are making tons of money. I know one guy who does it part time and says its a 6 figure a year business.

No on the lenience....

The only surefire way I see things not changing is if you can get them to back off. May be too late for that though. Going to have to go after those in the upper management strata. Those who think they have a shot at administrator. If they spend some quality time in the hot seat heads will roll or certain folks will get kicked upstairs into obscurity.
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 09:44 PM
what goes up, must come down..
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ok, my 2 bob's worth...
I have no doubt Australian boffins will be closely watching what the USA hands down
Post #1 appears largely very realistic.
I am no authority on this subject, so the following is purely my personal opinion only...

i remember as a teenager i used to design and fly my own control line & free fight planes, balsa, tissue, dope... and also kites...
One kite i had, decades ago, had a 5' tethered head & a then latest and greatest 100' long mylar tail, which easily went up all of my 1000' line... one day the fun police arrived and politely asked me to significantly reduce my altitude as the local seaplane operator was concerned that I was too close to his approach/departure flight line...
Soooo..... going by the current hype, will kite flying be banned or rediculously restricted too?

RC flying is a hobby enjoyed by a very large international participation.

Outlawing, or placing unrealistic constrictive restrictions on such a hobby makes as much sense as banning vehicles- cars kill & maime how many each year? Yet all the laws under the clouded sun does not stop dangerous drivers, drunk & drugged drivers, incompetant drivers, racing drivers, or just plain irresponsible & dumb drivers... then there are the cars themselves- how many death traps are out there that are literal death traps.... or for that matter, million dollar sports cars capable of greater than 300kph on public roads.... and sometimes driven to their high speed potential on public highways...
Back to flying, I have known people who hang glide with no restriction, even country ultralight flyers on private properties who have no clue about civil aviation.

FPV is simply a technological extention of RC flying, enjoyed by millions, with an unquestionable safety history compared to many other hobbies/sports.
It doesnt need to be made any more complicated than this.

RC/FPV flight needs NOT to be banned or unrealistically restricted no more than cars, motobikes, parachutes, hang gliders... kites...

But it does need rules and guidelines, THAT is for sure.
One only needs to glance around on youtube/vimeo to see grandstanding idiots- both LOS & FPV- flaunting public safety by flying over public bridges, flying at cars on highways, dive bombing on people in parks, surfing down highrise buildings in the middle of cities.... these egotistical clowns deserve jail time as much as the idiot i witnessed wheelstanding his R1 'cycle through peak hour traffic recently.
Not unlike the bloody fool flying his LOS RC plane at an Australian international airport- behaviour such as this NEEDS to be addressed.

Realistic rules/laws/guidelines I agree with whole heartedly.
Those who fly with total disregard for public/civil aviation safety should face heavy penalties.
Punish those who deserve it through irresponsiblity- but please don't punish the innocent majority because of the irresponsible minority.

Registered model clubs seem to vary on their attitude to FPV flight- some embrace it, some are scare mongerers who want nothing to do with it, and some simply fear the unknown.

IMHO FPV flight should not be performed with general LOS flight on the same field at the same time, excepting when it is agreed upon and pre planned.
The number of FPV'ers who can fly at any one time is restricted by the limited number of frequencies anyway.
Buddy box with FPV is second to useless IMO... but a competant spotter is gold.
Put in perspective, most approved plane clubs are located near residential areas & public roads/highways.... what happens when LOS rc link is lost at 400' altitude...? Is has and does happen.
Flying beyond LOS I see no problem with, but must be a safe minimum distance away from any public/residential.
RTH is a great reccomendation but is recommended assistance only- if a battery or ESC or motor fails during long range, then obviously RTH is useless.
Altitude. Depends on local flight paths. Some registered clubs have 400' alt's, some 1000'. Simply make it easily accessable to the public where all known flight paths are, and maximum allowed altitude for rc flyers... same applies for NOTAMs.

For the most part, if an FPV RC'er wishes to fly 10km distance over a forest at an approved altitude and his plane falls out of the sky- it is his loss, and there is no reasonable law that should have anything to say.
The same senario over a residential township, the penalties should be very steep.

We are discussing laws to affect a hobby, enjoyed by millions.

Realistically constructive laws, rules, regulations to make it safer for all, I welcome with open arms.

To curb those who deliberately endanger others- yes, there needs to be laws to address the irresponsible minority.

But.... put in perspective.... just what are the known figures of injuries/damages caused by:
~LOS RC aircraft
~FPV RC aircraft
I'll bet there will be precious few.
I will bet my bottom dollar that there are far more injuries from amatuer rockets, hang gliders, paragliders, utralights, unregistered farm vehicles etc etc etc
Keep in mind that at most sanctioned clubs the flight distance is generally 300 metres or there-abouts, so there are many who fly with cheap RC controllers... but most fpv'ers use quality proven RC gear, with less chance of failure.

Banning or placing unrealistic impositions on FPV, or RC in general, will simply force the majority to enjoy their hobby "black market" style.... not to mention the huge resources & strain on the legal fraternity to try to enforcement unrealistic measures.

Issue guidelines now to AVOID possible future issues.
Focus on those who truly are deliberately endangering others.

But let's be realistic.

Please?
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 09:59 PM
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^ i agree with your post, but unfortunately that is not the world we live in.

Yes, it is unbeleivable that our hobby is under attack. However, that doesn't change the fact that it is.

Recently our government passed a bill allow the indefinite detention of anyone, including citizens. This bill also allows this to happen with no trial or any other sort of check or balance. NDAA 2012.

Not to mention the assassination of Anwar Al Awlaki, a US citizen(though terrorist).

Coming up soon are SOPA and PIPA which effectively give the government the ability to censor and even potentionally shut down any website via DNS blocking, if any member or user of that site has violated a copyright. That means one copyrighted song on youtube, and now the government has the grounds to effectively shut all of youtube down, even in your country.

Our government does FAR more unreasonable things than banning a few thousand nerds from enjoying thier favorite hobby.
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Evans View Post
AMATEUR MODEL FPV SAFETY CODE


DEFINITIONS

FPV
First Person View (FPV) piloting is defined as remotely controlling a model aircraft by the pilot in command (PIC) by the use of an onboard video camera and wireless video transmitter which sends a live video image of the aircraft’s attitude in flight to a “ground station” which consists of a wireless video receiver and display devices such as a video monitor and/or video “goggles”.

AMATEUR
Non-commercial hobbyists and amateur model aircraft users operating for sport and recreation. Commercial operations (e.g.: pay-for-hire, aerial photography, etc) are not recreational activities, and as such are not covered under these guidelines.


AMA
The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) is a self-supporting, non-profit organization whose purpose is to promote development of model aviation as a recognized sport and worthwhile recreation activity, and is the official national body for model aviation in the United States.


OPERATING REQUIREMENTS
1. Maximum flight altitude of 400ft AGL as per FAA guideline AC 91-57.
2. Flights are not permitted over densely populated areas of cities, towns or over any open-air assembly of persons.
3. Flights within 3 statute miles of an airport require prior approval of the airport manager.
4. Maximum operating range shall be limited to AMA safety rules and FAA guidelines.
5. Flights shall be conducted in such a way as to prevent harm to full-scale aircraft, people, animals or property.
6. Flights should be only conducted under VFR weather conditions.
a. Day = 1 statute mile of visibility
b. Night = 3 statute miles of visibility
7. Night flights require on-board aircraft lights that show the aircraft’s attitude visible from 1000 ft.
8. Fully autonomous aerial vehicles that lack the ability to be totally controlled by the pilot in command are not considered to be FPV aircraft and as such are not covered by these guidelines.
9. Aircraft will be flown by regular visual line-of-sight method during initial testing and/or testing of any flight system changes that could affect performance and/or handling.
10. Aircraft will contain contact information for the pilot, including but not limited to, the pilots full name, address, and phone number.


RECOMMENDATIONS

1. Aircraft maximum weight and speed limited to AMA safety rules and FAA guidelines.
2. The use of spotters is recommended during initial flight training or at congested flying fields.
3. GPS based programmable redundant failsafe systems are encouraged and if used for return to home purpose should be programmed to bring the aircraft back to a safe location away from people and property. If a return-to-home feature is not used, it is advisable to
4. Have on-board capability (fail safe) of landing the aircraft if pilot control is interrupted.
5. Any record attempts that exceed these guidelines require the prior approval of all official agencies involved that would include but are not limited to FAA and FAI.

FREQUENCY MANAGEMENT

FPV pilots shall adhere to frequency control and licensing set forth by the FCC. This applies to both the RC control systems used, as well as the wireless video transmissions. FPV pilots will also take care to minimize frequency conflicts with other model aircraft pilots.


FLIGHTS AT AMA SANCTIONED AIRFIELDS (See also Supplement Code 550)

Preface: Keep in mind some AMA fields are located within congested or populated areas. Furthermore these sites may have contractual agreements with land owners restricting activity within a limited flight zone. These areas do not have the space requirements for FPV flying and should not be used. The AMA model aircraft Safety Code will apply at all times!

1. An FPV-equipped model must be flown by two AMA members utilizing a buddy-box system. The pilot in command must be on the primary transmitter, maintain visual contact, and be prepared to assume control in the event of a problem
2. The operational range of the model is limited to the pilot in command’s visual line of sight as defined in the Official AMA Safety Code (see Radio Control, item 10).
3. The flight path of model operations shall be limited to the designated flying site and approved overfly area.
4. The model weight and speed shall be limited to a maximum of 10 pounds and 60 miles per hour.

Flying at a AMA field is a privilege and not a right! Please do not get into arguments regarding FPV at AMA fields. Arguing if you can fly FPV will only give FPV'ers a bad name!



Guidelines prepared by U.S. FPV Pilots
http://www.rcgroups.com/video-piloting-fpv-rpv-469/
August 2008


Flying with a spotter should be mandatory.

The spotter's job:
- Monitor the airspace in which the model is flying.
- Warning the pilot as required.

This means no flying in in any airspace that can't be cleared by the spotter, i.e. in the clouds or too far...

IMHO, this is the only way one can reasonably answer the "see and avoid" requirement.
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 10:44 PM
SlowStick Test Pilot
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That's some good stuff guys!
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gundamnitpete View Post
i personally think the FAA is just going to ban FPV flying as we know it. Either make it only legal at AMA fields, or make so many loops to jump through it will be difficult to do.
I have to say, who cares if the the FAA bans FPV as a hobby. They do not have any means of enforcement at all. I have spoken to guys who work for the FAA and they laugh about my concerns. They all say that the FAA does not have enough people doing what they are mandated to do right now.
Every landscaping company in my town has illegal immigrants working for them. These illegals don't have licenses or SS#'s yet you can not be a competitive landscaping company without them. Don't get me started with what is going on in the Banking industry.
The FAA can ban what ever they want, if they can't enforce the ban who cares. How many guys that do FPV have HAM Radio Licenses? It is against the law to use these VTX's without one and there is a hefty fine. Why don't I see anyone babbling about that?
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 10:54 PM
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You know, I'm not convinced you even need a spotter to see and avoid other aircraft. Today while flying over the Virginia Beach landfill I spotted a full-scale plane through my video link. It was flying well above me (at least 2000 feet) and I posed no danger to it, but I descended a bit just to be safe. See and avoid is perfectly possible just using your video link.
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 11:05 PM
Team White Llama!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octo View Post
I have to say, who cares if the the FAA bans FPV as a hobby. They do not have any means of enforcement at all. I have spoken to guys who work for the FAA and they laugh about my concerns. They all say that the FAA does not have enough people doing what they are mandated to do right now.
Every landscaping company in my town has illegal immigrants working for them. These illegals don't have licenses or SS#'s yet you can not be a competitive landscaping company without them. Don't get me started with what is going on in the Banking industry.
The FAA can ban what ever they want, if they can't enforce the ban who cares. How many guys that do FPV have HAM Radio Licenses? It is against the law to use these VTX's without one and there is a hefty fine. Why don't I see anyone babbling about that?
yeah i'm with you totally. Doesn't mean what's happening doesn't suck, lol.


plus landscapers rarely post thier exploits on forums and youtube,
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gundamnitpete View Post
^ i agree with your post, but unfortunately that is not the world we live in.

Yes, it is unbeleivable that our hobby is under attack. However, that doesn't change the fact that it is.

Recently our government passed a bill allow the indefinite detention of anyone, including citizens. This bill also allows this to happen with no trial or any other sort of check or balance. NDAA 2012.

Not to mention the assassination of Anwar Al Awlaki, a US citizen(though terrorist).

Coming up soon are SOPA and PIPA which effectively give the government the ability to censor and even potentionally shut down any website via DNS blocking, if any member or user of that site has violated a copyright. That means one copyrighted song on youtube, and now the government has the grounds to effectively shut all of youtube down, even in your country.

Our government does FAR more unreasonable things than banning a few thousand nerds from enjoying thier favorite hobby.
I am with you. What we should do is form an FPV corp and register it as a Bank. The criminals in the US congress will realise that as a Bank we don't not need to be regulated at all. In fact they may even cut us a check, if we promise to give back a few cents on the dollar to them in the form of a bribe. I mean campaign contribution.
We as citizen get the Government that we except and today most American are willing to except a criminal mafia type Government.
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 11:24 PM
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[QUOTE=gundamnitpete;20427104
Not to mention the assassination of Anwar Al Awlaki, a US citizen(though terrorist).

[/QUOTE]
They also killed his 16 year old son.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...ssL_story.html
I feel so much safer now.
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Old Jan 15, 2012, 12:10 AM
FPV junkie
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This is BS

Anyone who flies FPV in class g uncontrolled airspace is completely legal.

Class G airspase is reserved for recreational pilotes, hobbies, etc.


If you are legal to use your RF equipment, and you are within Class G airspace, and the FAA wants to kick you out of it, then they better start kicking the hang gliders, and paragliders out of it.
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