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Old Feb 08, 2011, 04:03 PM
Smoke me a Kipper
fritzdecat's Avatar
Cedar Grove North Carolina
Joined Oct 2006
1,214 Posts
Ok Got it

Thanks for the clarity
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Old Feb 11, 2011, 03:58 AM
On a holiday?
boopidoo's Avatar
Uppsala, Sweden
Joined Sep 2008
3,636 Posts
Why is this thread a sticky? It's hardly useful information for anyone living outside the US. It takes up place on top of the FPV forum where more useful threads could be instead.

The thread is almost three years old and only has just over 17000 views so it's hardly popular either. I say remove the sticky and let people find more useful threads in its stead.
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Old Feb 11, 2011, 06:14 AM
FPV Desert Beta Test Center
Mesa, Arizona
Joined Nov 2006
2,473 Posts
In the U.S. there isn't much more important than upcoming regulations and for anyone interested there is no other place that factual information on the subject is stored. If you want to discuss what color to paint the tail or to watch videos there are plenty of threads for that purpose.
After final regulations are published it will have served its purpose.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 10:31 AM
Live FPV or Die
VRflyer's Avatar
Montreal,Canada
Joined Feb 2002
3,981 Posts
I prefer to see this thread in top for now, but I agree next winter the sticky should be remove when we will know exactly how end the new UAV regulations in USA and Canada. We have the same regulation in Canada and USA and they are very similar to us in other countries too
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Old Feb 16, 2011, 03:28 PM
Promoting Model Aviation...
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United States, CA, Tehachapi
Joined Nov 2005
25,453 Posts
I'd thought I'd stop in to see what you guys were saying about the upcoming FAA proposals and if there is much discussion on the topic. If the new rules were going to effect anyone, I think it would be the FPV community the most since I think the target of the proposed rules are the sUAV start up companies and agencies that are coming on line with new aircraft to perform their duties in small efficient model aircraft vs. expensive full size aircraft.

Are you folks concerned at all about the new proposals?

BTW, a club member has a FPV rig setup and it has to be the coolest thing since LiPo batteries hit the streets. I have to think this is the most interesting aspect of model aviation that has hit the streets in the last few years. Do you feel it has gone mainstream yet?

Thanks,

Frank
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Old Feb 16, 2011, 04:12 PM
FPV Desert Beta Test Center
Mesa, Arizona
Joined Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
I'd thought I'd stop in to see what you guys were saying about the upcoming FAA proposals and if there is much discussion on the topic. If the new rules were going to effect anyone, I think it would be the FPV community the most since I think the target of the proposed rules are the sUAV start up companies and agencies that are coming on line with new aircraft to perform their duties in small efficient model aircraft vs. expensive full size aircraft.

Are you folks concerned at all about the new proposals?

BTW, a club member has a FPV rig setup and it has to be the coolest thing since LiPo batteries hit the streets. I have to think this is the most interesting aspect of model aviation that has hit the streets in the last few years. Do you feel it has gone mainstream yet?

Thanks,

Frank
Yes, the upcoming regs are a major concern and will impact legal FPV. As a matter of fact this thread was formed in 2008 for the express purpose of creating safety guidelines in preparation for what we knew was coming. It bought us the AMA rule 550 for FPV but that requires a spotter and buddy box for the time being. 2011 is the year of FAA small UAV regulations and their Proposed Notice of Rulemaking is expected mid-year. Our next task will be commenting the proposed rules to make whatever positive impact is possible.
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Old Feb 16, 2011, 08:47 PM
Just trying to get a nut.
scrtsqrl's Avatar
United States, VA, McLean
Joined Oct 2006
6,469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
Do you feel it has gone mainstream yet?

Thanks,

Frank
Hi Frank,
Nice to see you around here.
I would say that it is getting there...Hobbyking has a FPV section...
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 10:41 AM
FPV Desert Beta Test Center
Mesa, Arizona
Joined Nov 2006
2,473 Posts
Nprm

The FAA is expected to publish a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) for small unmanned aerial systems (sUAS) by mid-year. These rules will affect all small-unmanned aircraft including public, civil and amateur. The public and civil part will be require licensing, certification and permits which places it cost wise well outside of what we are doing with amateur FPV. The future legal amateur portion of which we are a part will be exempt from those tougher requirements but will be required to comply with stricter new definitions yet to be disclosed. We fully expect however that there will be parts of the regulations that will negatively affect FPV and our only remaining hope for relief will be during the comment period. After the proposed regulations are published in the Federal Register there will be a defined time period for comments to be submitted. When this time period closes there will be a period in which FAA considers the comments and drafts a final set of regulations. It is expected that final regulations will be issued no sooner than 2012.

Currently AMA is the only organized group supporting amateur model aviation and they will be supporting a write in opposition to what ever they determine to be detrimental to the sport. The ongoing AMA discussion can be viewed here on their web site
http://tinyurl.com/63vm2m2
AMA will attempt to protect what they have been doing and the FPV portion is their rule #550. While everyone should support their efforts for general RC we as FPV pilots will need to make sure comments specifically supporting our needs are heard in numbers large enough to have an impact. Influential individuals and organization to which comments should be submitted will be posted at a later date.

Sending comments now before the proposed regulations are published would be wasted effort but we can utilize the time remaining to define reasonable agreements supporting our desires. The known key issues will be allowed altitude, speed, weight, proximity to airports and VLOS. We need to discuss what the best arguments will be for maintaining what we have now or if possible increasing the limits. We can expect that the FAA proposal will attempt to clearly separate amateur model aircraft from the other licensed NAS users and it is that audience that we will need to persuade.
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 06:25 PM
Registered User
Joined Dec 2006
131 Posts
Hello Gary,

I rarely post but I read on this site often. If I’m following you FPV won’t become illegal until next year if it does at all. Is this true? Do I have this year at least to fly?

I see some people commenting on here about if this thread should be a sticky. Well I don’t really care to comment on that but I would like to suggest a sticky that says in bold letters "FPV MAY BECOME ILLEGAL SOON". This would prevent people like me that are just getting into the hobby from going out and spending $1200 on something that they may not be able to use legally soon. I didn’t find out about the legal battle until after I purchased all my FPV equipment. I know this site is sponsored by many FPV vendors that would disagree but I think it would be the honest thing to do. This would also cut down on all the "newbies" that watched the Trappy video and want to fly to Hawaii and back on their first FPV flight. I know many people want to see that minimized as well.

I really hope it doesn’t become illegal but if it does I don’t think I could enjoy it.
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 07:04 PM
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Daemon's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
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I recently attended a district AMA webinar meeting which included some various higher-ups
from the AMA, and their take on the process is that the FAA currently seems willing
to let the AMA (acting as a "community based standards body") propose an alternate
set of rules for pure amateur use (and those commercial entities targeting their
products specifically for amateur use) that can be used wherever people fly today,
not just at AMA insured RC fields. Their intent is to propose a set of rules that
essentially matches those they use today, based on their outstanding safety record
over the years, which means they're not going for silliness like a self imposed
400ft cap everywhere, speed limits, and so forth.

They did not specifically talk about FPV, other than to say that yes the FAA is
aware of it and the various "crazy" videos out there, but we already knew that. If
the AMA follows through proposing a set of rules that matches the current ones they
use which includes rule #555, then presumably it could be applied anywhere but of
course it's a rule most of us do not strictly follow, so it's up to you to decide if
that's good news or not. The FAA's main set of rules will undoubtedly include
licensing and various other things much more limiting than the AMA proposed rules
so unlikely to be a path most of us will want to follow. All of the sUAS rules (FAA
regs and alternate AMA rules) are pretty much founded on a VLoS requirement, so
that's probably not a battle worth fighting.

They outlined the whole process the FAA is going through right now, and
the 90 day public comment period appears to have been pushed back a month or
two from June 2011 to July/Aug timeframe. They're expecting
tens to hundreds of thousands of responses plus the full proposed set of rules
from the AMA. FAA will go through a lengthy review period which includes
modifications to the rules (they expect much more change during that
time than would usually occur for a regular NPRM). Current expectation is that
the earliest the rules could be published as law, is early 2013 timeframe.

They said there is *huge* pressure on the FAA from commercial and public (police, fire,
S&R, etc) special interests driving this process forward, so as usual, it's all about
the money. AMA feels we (amateur modelers) were dragged into this pretty much
only because these same interests were trying to operate under AC91-57.

The following is my opinion only.
I still expect to see some regulations that we really really don't like (not
just affecting FPV). If/When we see that following the start of the public comment
period and if folks want to "go public" with their concerns about the future
of amateur modeling I suggest something along the lines of "Do we really need
more *unnecessary regulation*, of toy airplanes?" putting emphasis on
the current anti-regulatory push from Washington from both Obama and the right.
I don't mean to suggest to make it political, but just make it clear to those
you talk to in the public the shear absurdity of attempting to regulate toy airplanes.

ian
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 07:49 PM
Live FPV or Die
VRflyer's Avatar
Montreal,Canada
Joined Feb 2002
3,981 Posts
Indycobra, it is not question of FPV become illegal. It is not because a minority of extreme FPV video exist that proove that most of FPV flyer do dangerous flying. It should not be hard to find more extreme r/c video without FPV and I don`t heard many non FPV flyer talking about the end of their hobby.

In Canada it goes well. As best as I know, I`m the only full time FPV pilot in the MAAC presently. Our president, Richard as always been open to all aspect of r/c world. He practice all of them. He call me at home the first time he heard thing about me and was always on my side.

Canada also prepare the new regulation for UAV. Our president represent Canadian FPV flyer presently. And like I said, very few peoples fly FPV in MAAC field presently. Amazing what he do for us. We are sure now that FPV flying is not include in the UAV regulation. We start with the Buddy box rules (that no one use...) and some kind of waver for experience pilot.

This is not my ideas, they are from the old and topgun pilot who had always talked about our plane like the most dangerous invention since the creation of r/c world, ok I exagerate a lot... Thoses rules do not represent what we do and no one is interest to follow them. In 4 years, I never heard about a serious FPV accident anywhere in the world.

I respect the MAAC for what they are doing for us, but our president will quit the presidence soon. I agree at 100% with his rule for Buddy box, but for plane above 2kg only. Under 2 Kg the stupid rule of buddy box should not apply, not even the limit of line of sight. I kept always my planes under 400feet and do go beyond one km and I fly over a desert field. Where is the problem? We have the right to form our own association and represent ourself to Transport Canada, so it will be the best way to take for the futur.

I have no fear if someone want to report me at Transport Canada because i don`t follow the buddy box rules. I will demonstrate that the flight was safe. I had study in aviation and I work in aviation. I even started private piloting lesson, i know much better how to regulate myself than the topgun at my town club.
They must move their club. the new location is accepted by the MAAC since near one year. I recently discovered that they will install their new club in direct line with our airport equip with instrument landing system. I calculated that the passenger and cargo planes will pass at 1200feet over the club. Also the landing system use the 1.2ghz, so the first harmonic is around 2.4ghz and the waves are direct in line with the landing runway, so they will receive them. They fly plane around 9-11 feet winspan And it this guys that tell that I`m dangerous with my styrofoam planes!

Not lucky for them, i work at the end of the runway in question and I see the antenna when I smoke outside ... I don`t want to cause them trouble at all. But I`m perhaps the only one apparently who understand the problem because I`m Avionic technician. So the the MAAc as been advise and they verify. Luckily they did not began their new installation.

They kick me out of their club 10 years ago... and still report me to the MAAC telling false accusation. Child playing...
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 07:50 PM
FPV Desert Beta Test Center
Mesa, Arizona
Joined Nov 2006
2,473 Posts
Good points! I like the toy airplane analogy.
As usual the devil is in the details. As I read it AMA will in fact submit their proposed rules to FAA for acceptance but it will occur after FAA publishes their proposed regulations. If that's the sequence then AMA can either submit proposed rules that follow the FAA proposal or rules that deviate. If they deviate the differences will need to be mediated
Time will tell but I expect it would take a miracle for AMA and FAA to have a meeting of the minds first time around. If FAA's starting position is at least AC 91-57 AMA will be starting behind the 8-ball. The days of voluntary compliance to an advisory is near its end.
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 08:04 PM
BEOWULF
North vancouver, B.C. Canada
Joined Apr 2008
18,827 Posts
Vrflyer you are right

I will add imho for MAAC rules to start because this is becomeing a popular thing very fast

-there should be a low weight class just for fpv
-visual line of sight
-buddy box for those whom the president or safety officer of the club says is nessecary, untill proven fpv "wings" class
-HAM licence
-no nitro or gas fpv planes
-possable extra endorsmant for insurance policy
for those wishing to fly fpv
-limit of planes alowed to fly while fpv is being flown
-imidiate ban of those from maac whom do not adbide by the rules of the club

just a few ideas for some rules to start and be safe

as now the rules are too over board and alow for cowboy mentality or abilities for people to fly monster planes fpv
we know it will, get out of control and people will fly further than they should with very large planes

this is just for maac rules and are only suggestions
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 08:44 PM
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Daemon's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
29,079 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Evans View Post
Good points! I like the toy airplane analogy.
As usual the devil is in the details. As I read it AMA will in fact submit their proposed rules to FAA for acceptance but it will occur after FAA publishes their proposed regulations. If that's the sequence then AMA can either submit proposed rules that follow the FAA proposal or rules that deviate. If they deviate the differences will need to be mediated
Time will tell but I expect it would take a miracle for AMA and FAA to have a meeting of the minds first time around. If FAA's starting position is at least AC 91-57 AMA will be starting behind the 8-ball. The days of voluntary compliance to an advisory is near its end.
The way the AMA folks described it, they are simply not allowed to be inside
the actual FAA process right now, but if their proposed rules are accepted by FAA (which
is actively soliciting them from the AMA) they will become a true alternative
integrated into the full set of regs. As an amateur model pilot you will be able to
choose which path through the regs you choose to follow. There's precedent
for this sort of thing in other areas of the FAA regs.

ian
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 08:53 PM
Just trying to get a nut.
scrtsqrl's Avatar
United States, VA, McLean
Joined Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Evans View Post
The known key issues will be allowed altitude, speed, weight, proximity to airports and VLOS. We need to discuss what the best arguments will be for maintaining what we have now or if possible increasing the limits. We can expect that the FAA proposal will attempt to clearly separate amateur model aircraft from the other licensed NAS users and it is that audience that we will need to persuade.
Having one foot in amateur and the other in professional aviation, I expect the following:

- A "hard" 400' ceiling.

- IMHO, Operations restricted to VLOS will be the hardest one to defend. Hence my discussion of how to define VLOS.

- Mandatory reporting requirement if operating within 3 miles of an airport. This can be as simple as calling in to declare your field is active.

- I don't think weight and speed will be too much of an issue since a relatively low/slow airplane can be a just as hazardous to full scale aircraft as say a 1/3 scale gasser.

- There will be a "waiver" process

- There AMA will not have a monopoly representing "amateur aviation". The door will be left open for other organizations like RCAPA.
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