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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:46 AM
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cleansurf2's Avatar
Australia (Newcastle)
Joined Mar 2009
603 Posts
Re: Build advise request

Thanks for the advise guys.

Here is some pictures of my cut down 48" PW51 Starfire build (Down to 41"), brilliant performance for a flying wing. The FG I-beam is excellent to follow the dual sweep wing profile.

The 60" Starfire is the same profile (no prop cut out, that pic was just a promo pic from the web site).

As suggested, I will beef up with dual FG I-beams, pushing a little forward of the setup in the photo here and the second I-beam more toward the rear (two I-beams spars in total). Is this what you mean by parimeter spars Josh ?

I will give the pull-apart idea a miss thanks Roger (I do predict some spontanious landings )
I can link the left and right wing I-beam spars with another length of FG rod built into the I-beams across the middle, meaning I will double up the I-beam strength across the middle half of the wing. Also will be adding a ballast tube of some type which will add more center strength.

-Also slicing FG rod into the LE to distribute impacts better.
-PU gluing all wing joints.
-Doing dual tail because it gets the tails further aft on this profile.
-Silicon hinges on balsa Elevons (Jim's style, thanks Jim).

It's a PW51 airfoil and if it goes as well as the 41" & 48" PW51 versions, then it should do well (considering it's not a plank).

Thanks guys
Rick
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:47 AM
AvB
Wind, hill, ... I'm keen ...
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Australia, QLD, Woody Point
Joined Nov 2006
4,525 Posts
Powerlines at Byron Bay. Eric broke the site record getting 209 from 203. But he only had it for 15 minutes before AVB broke it with the shockwave getting 210 mph! Astan is about to have a crack with his d40. I think Eric will be up for another challenge very soon!
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:52 AM
DS state of origin NSW Vs QLD
Forrest12's Avatar
Joined Jul 2009
1,371 Posts
Hey all
Well a few of us mad buggers braved the heat today at Dungog, It got up to around 43 It was like sitting in an oven. I took my FPV skywalker to maiden hoping to have the same effect as a DLG does to the wind , But it didnt really work out that way. It was that hot the rubber bands actually deformed kind of melted almost
We got there at 9am to find no wind at all ! But got lucky when it got up to 10-15 knots at around lunch time for about half hour or so.
We left at 2pm as there wasnt any wind and it was way too hot!

Chris got a new PB with his Jdub, Im sure hes keen to get into some real wind though.

The Highlight for me today was seeing Grant flying like a Pro! I was so proud of him, Never once looking like he was going to crash, The penny has dropped!

He maidened the new Orbit 48" and once the C of G was nailed it came alive, Man this thing is fast! Grant has designed and is cutting these DS specific foamys. Ive got a 80" on the build table after maidening a prototype a few months back at 150mph.

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Dungog Australia
Pilot: Chris Bone
Plane: Speedo (outlaw)
Speed: 121MPH
Witness: Peter Maruncic
Radar: Falcon
Gyro: No

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Dungog Australia
Pilot: Chris Bone
Plane: JW60 (Airframe PB)
Speed: 111MPH
Witness: Peter Maruncic
Radar: Falcon
Gyro: No

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Dungog Australia
Pilot: Grant Snow
Plane: Orbit 48"
Speed: 121MPH
Witness: Peter Maruncic
Radar: Falcon
Gyro: No

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Dungog Australia
Pilot: Peter Maruncic
Plane: Orbit 48"
Speed: 113MPH
Witness:Grant Snow
Radar: Falcon
Gyro: No
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:54 AM
DS state of origin NSW Vs QLD
Forrest12's Avatar
Joined Jul 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvB View Post
Powerlines at Byron Bay. Eric broke the site record getting 209 from 203. But he only had it for 15 minutes before AVB broke it with the shockwave getting 210 mph! Astan is about to have a crack with his d40. I think Eric will be up for another challenge very soon!
Good to see some competition going on, Go get em Eric
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 02:01 AM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Miners Rest
Joined Feb 2009
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That's starting to look like a Bluto. Which reminds me of this old video that got me interested in DS.

Bluto Too Close (1 min 10 sec)


ps nice pavers
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 02:24 AM
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cleansurf2's Avatar
Australia (Newcastle)
Joined Mar 2009
603 Posts
Nice Bluto video Batball.

Fast top turn for a foamy, that's the stuff. Untill I build up the DS skills for a mouldy anyway.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 02:09 PM
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cleansurf2's Avatar
Australia (Newcastle)
Joined Mar 2009
603 Posts
Here is a picture of my current layout plan for the DS Starfire 60" (PW51 foil).

-With the dual I-beam FG rod, another FG rod will be installed into the I-beams across the wing halfs.

-My ballast tube position in the center (still considering that design).

-At the moment I am considering a full ballast length cover/flap for ballast loading that will double as air brakes. Hopefully it won't cause up pitch as it will be on the CG.

Very open to input, ideas and bagging out on the setup guys !

Cheers
Rick
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 02:29 PM
Arrarrar!
josh18's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Wagga Wagga
Joined Jan 2010
3,317 Posts
Hey rick, what I call perimeter spar is what you call I beam I think. I would do it exactly as you are . Nice one!
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:27 PM
by ZIPPER
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East Kurrajong Sydney Australia
Joined Aug 2004
5,674 Posts
Are those little fiber-glass rods the spar?
If so, they wont do much to stiffen the wing. I would go with some carbon ribbon around 1mm x 10mm, if your going to DS it.
Also you will need some ply ribs at the root to hold the wing joiners tubes.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 06:14 PM
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cleansurf2's Avatar
Australia (Newcastle)
Joined Mar 2009
603 Posts
The fiber-glass rods are the spars, but they will be in I-beam configuration (one FG rod on the top of the airfoil another directly below it on the bottom of the airfoil, inserted just below the surface)
Is this the same as a perimeter spar" Josh ?.
I use PU glue for good foam penatration and to retain some flexability without glue cracking.

I have been pleasantely suprised at just how strong the I-beam configuration is, especially when combined with laminate. The advantage for me has been it allows a little flex without cracking, which can happen with carbon spars.

I only have one carbon strip at the moment, so that would cover the center half. Little concerned that the carbon breaks easier under DS stresses, which I have experienced. Mine you, these where 48" starfires originally built for front side flying with fairly light 6mm box section CF spars.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 07:09 PM
AvB
Wind, hill, ... I'm keen ...
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Australia, QLD, Woody Point
Joined Nov 2006
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It was huge fun flying with Eric and Astan yesterday arvo. We first went to the lookout ridge near the highway, properly called “McLeods Shoot” on RCSpeeds but also called “Powerlines” or “Pinetrees”. When Janet and I got there Eric was putting together his superbly gorgeous Needle. The wind was NNE and maybe 20 – 25 knots? We had a quick frontside fly, me with a Scratcho. The lift was bumpy in close due to the stepped nature of the frontside slope, but huge lift further out. I landed as Eric headed back over the fence to cross the road for the DS zone. The landing area was huge and luxurious compared to anywhere I’ve flown recently!!! Heaps of nice laminar air and soft grass.

Eric quickly got over 200 and he was stoked … reckoned it was the best air he’s ever felt at Powerlines. Problem is there’s a powerline running across the backside, right in the best line. So you’re on the edge most of the time. He pushed it up to 209mph which was the new site record.

The newly ousted site record holder (Asto) arrived. Eric was concerned that Asto might have a nervous breakdown, since it might bring back traumatic memories of Astan’s Needle being lost at Cass Ridge NZ!

I put the Shockwave together, did the walk (managing to get caught out flying across the sun and flash blinding myself!) and got over the back, and I do feel bad about taking Ezza’s new record by 1mph so quickly. Particularly as he didn’t fly the Needle again to try to get it back! The Shockwave did it easily but I was struggling a bit because it was nerve wracking getting low but watching out for the powerline and if you were a bit high it got blown up. So it was like trying to balance on a slippery ball. Plus my neck felt like it was breaking due to looking up so steeply from where we were standing down the back.

Astan flew the little D40 … typical crazy wild Asto flying. It looks like he’s trying to nail every bug flying in the zone. He absolutely gave it everything and Ezza and I were taking turns trying to hide behind each other! Crazy girly screams as the D40 aimed right at us about 30 metres away. The cows stupidly kept grazing, unaware of the death missile shreiking a few metres overhead. Some people had pulled up on the road above, pointing and taking photos as the D40 went berzerk, and I noticed that Janet had got out of the car and was telling them what was going on. Eric wryly joked that she was boasting “My husband has the record speed for this site” (he was right!). Finally the inevitable crunch, and silence, and the D40, which John Buxton gave to Asto in California nearly 2 years ago, was a pile of splinters in the paddock. “Good!” Exclaimed Asto “I’ve been wanting that plane to die for ages!” John B told Asto he was glad to give it away as it handled so badly. Asto got 157mph with it before it was rolled in.

I had a go with a yellow/ green Scratcho I’ve recently put together. The wing was one of my blue foam core+ Ampreg experiments; quite a thin glass layup with poor torsional stiffness, and it’s a good demonstration for why you need stiff carbon wings for DS! It’s the only “squirrelly” Scratcho I’ve had. It got to 141mph. I also flew the yellow “Light Scratcho” that’s been such a spectacular performer, with its light but stiff carbon wing with socked spar. I recently cut its wingtips to an elliptical curve and it flies better than before. Eric had a good long fly of it too. Both Eric and I got it up to 124mph, but it was more about whippy turns, eggbeaters and fun factor than about speed, and Eric seemed very impressed with it for both DS and frontside.

Asto then had a big session with a Reaper getting 110mph, the first time he’s got a foamie over 100 at that site!

The wind had gone more north so with the arvo fading we we drove 20mins to the lighthouse to DS the south side - first time for me. You have to chuck your plane through a small window in the solid wall of foliage into the northern frontside! The DSing was really fun. An airy feeling standing on the hangglider launch pad above the steep scrubby drop, with a massive panoramic view, the plane ripping up out of the backside sometimes only a few feet off the shrubbery and a few feet from the timber ramp! I couldn’t relax while two tourists insisted on sitting on the end of the ramp with the plane spearing right at them. It was really a top fun place to DS. Not easy to keep the right line, but (once the tourists had gone) fast and in-your-face. The glass Scratcho got 141mph and flew so responsively it was a monstrous buzz.

Eric flew one of those tiny Wabbits and when it got stuck in a treetop on landing he shook the tree and a big branch broke off and clocked him on the head! Quite a bad bang. Asto got 118 with the Reaper and we could feel the air coming off it as it swooshed past ridiculously close. I flew the lighter Scratcho - only 130mph due to the lighter weight, but man it was good. I had to lower the elevator rates because I only had to think about elevator and it banged the top turn so fast you couldn’t see it flick around. I hogged the zone for ages, loving it. Asto stood near the edge of the ramp, and said “hey I just radar gunned Andrew’s pen!s and it was doing 78mph!” I guess this thought was just too much overload for my DS faded brain and next lap I flew the Scratcho flat into to the treetops at about 120mph. Not much noise and we thought it would be undamaged, but when I scrambled down under the thick canopy and retrieved it (guided by Eric looking from above …. “shake a tree! OK a bit further and a bit right ..”) it was a bit sad, with shrubbery embedded into wing gouges and several fuselage cracks. Oh well!

It was so much fun, thanks so much Eric and Asto for a great arvo! I have a shocker of a headache, perhaps the sore neck or the sun or whatever … and the light Scratcho is gonna need some shed time … but it was worth it!

P.S. we got good video with a stills camera but I've saved it in an unfriendly format, so can't edit it.



Date: 18 Jan 2013
Flyer: Eric Smith
Plane: Needle DSL
Site: McLeods Shoot, Byron Bay NSW (also variously named “Powerlines” and “Pinetrees”
Speed: 209mph
Witness: Andrew von Berky
Gun: Falcon DS
Gyro/ DCS: No.

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Flyer: Andrew von Berky
Plane: Shockwave DS
Site: McLeods Shoot, Byron Bay NSW
Speed: 210mph
Witness: Eric Smith
Gun: Falcon DS
Gyro/ DCS: No.

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Flyer: Astan Singh
Plane: D40 (R.I.P.)
Site: McLeods Shoot, Byron Bay NSW
Speed: 157mph
Witness: Eric Smith
Gun: Falcon DS
Gyro/ DCS: No

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Flyer: Andrew von Berky
Plane: Scratcho
Site: McLeods Shoot, Byron Bay NSW
Speed: 145mph
Witness: Eric Smith
Gun: Falcon DS
Gyro/ DCS: No.

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Flyer: Astan Singh
Plane: Reaper
Site: McLeods Shoot, Byron Bay NSW
Speed: 110mph
Witness: Eric Smith
Gun: Falcon DS
Gyro/ DCS: No

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Flyer: Astan Singh
Plane: Reaper
Site: Tallows Ridge Byron Bay NSW (DSing southern side)
Speed: 118mph
Witness: Eric Smith
Gun: Falcon DS
Gyro/ DCS: No

Date: 18 Jan 2013
Flyer: Andrew von Berky
Plane: Scratcho
Site: Tallows Ridge Byron Bay NSW (DSing southern side)
Speed: 141mph
Witness: Eric Smith
Gun: Falcon DS
Gyro/ DCS: No
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:34 PM
225 mph
-Snowfly-'s Avatar
Australia, NSW, Warriewood
Joined Oct 2011
291 Posts
Thanks for the kind words Pete.
Dungog was fun yesterday. I think we made the best of a bad day.
It was stinking hot and the wind was all over the place.
I made a mess if my Orbit 48 with a few maiden crashes trying to get it dialed in.
It was all worth it though to string some nice laps together with the Orbit 48. It will be a fun model in some good wind. It was also great to have Boney out there too.
I'm looking forward to rebuilding the Orbit 48 and seeing how fast it can go with a better pilot on a big day.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 02:25 AM
Arrarrar!
josh18's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Wagga Wagga
Joined Jan 2010
3,317 Posts
Nice work with up there guys. You Dungog boys must be having DS withdrawals to go out in 43 degrees and no wind!

Rick, I reckon those fibreglass spars are really good (yeah thats what I call perimeter spars). Laying them just as you have will make a nice strong stiff wing, as long as you use some sort of joiner at the centre and make it a one piece wing. Ribbon is really good too but I have found it breaks easily, where the fibreglass has more flex and last a bit longer.
Cheers
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 03:03 AM
DS state of origin NSW Vs QLD
Forrest12's Avatar
Joined Jul 2009
1,371 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh18 View Post
Nice work with up there guys. You Dungog boys must be having DS withdrawals to go out in 43 degrees and no wind!
Bunch of mad buggers I tell ya. It's been that long since we've had anything that resembled a westerly.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 03:06 AM
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cleansurf2's Avatar
Australia (Newcastle)
Joined Mar 2009
603 Posts
Starfire 60" Build

Thanks Josh. Gives me more confidence that I'm on track for this build.

I found a nice piece of U shaped electrical conduit cover for my ballast bed. That and some additional strengthening across the center will make it rock solid there.

Air brake Question anyone: The cover for my ballast bed will be across the center at the CG (about 30cm long, it will hinge from the front, servo operated). Kind of like this, but across the center of the flying wing.
Or this zagi.
I know it will slow it down.
But is it likely to cause the wing to pitch up when the cover is operated, given that it's on the CG (where the lead rod is in the previos photo) ?

Rick
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