HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old May 07, 2013, 03:01 AM
Registered User
anlucas's Avatar
Greece, Attica, Athens
Joined May 2011
3,496 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
anlucas, you mean by having the cheater fully open, versus having the grill piece there?
You were using the Lander alloy 10 blade?? 5S and/or 6S ?
There is no way the fans can get enough air into them from this thing in stock form!
I better get it out tonight and do the power/thrust checks, and cheater grill off... I keep forgetting!
Peter,

mine came with the cheater fully closed and the perforated plastic cover as an option to install. I just cut 90% off the cover so I am effectively running with a fully open cheater.

I am still using an L2855-2300kv on 5S. The Lander 6S DPS + new ESC is waiting to go in.
anlucas is online now Find More Posts by anlucas
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old May 07, 2013, 03:19 AM
Registered User
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
11,508 Posts
I must have been thinking of the Sea Vixen.
Gee, getting the Lander alloy into the T-45 will be a bit more fun! A fair effort to get a plain CS10 housing into it.

I will do tests on the "no-grill" lower cheater, plus the 'open top cheaters', and then the "sanded open to the Nth degree" exhaust ! LOL.
I am expecting to see good gains from the "No-Grill" test right away. Hmm... need to do the "No Wing" test too really....

I guess maybe the "power eating", which I am referencing off the Dynam Meteor and/or TianSheng F-16 because they both do far longer flight times, could be partly because of the HIGH drag of the Panther. So it 'eats' power just to fly somewhat fast (much slower than those prior two, which are both very slick and low drag airframes).

I reckon a good motor KV for 6S, to be more efficient and suited to the slower aircraft type it is, would be 2000kv area. Not 2200kv. I think that because the 6S 2200kv is capable ot 'too much' thrust, which can't even be fed, or get out, anyway. So by 70% throttle you are burning power for nothing. And if you run at lower throttle level you are then burning power in the ESC anyway... thus the optimal is not to use a combo that 'over-drives' the airframes ducting ability anyway, and just settle for 'slower' flight - like the real F9F was versus F-16 anyway.

The L2855-2300kv on 5S is probably a good combo for it!
And the next level, before reaching 'over-driven', would be the Freewing 2300kv 2839 on 5S... because it does X amount more power output than the L2855 as it is a more capable motor. eg maybe 100g to 200g more thrust. Which the Lander, or CP IR550-2200kv (which is in mine), also do on 5S, except they weigh a lot more.

Hmmm, I also need to test 5S.... as it could very well be equal to it on 6S, seeing the 6S level is possibly notably stunted anyway.
A whole BUNCH of tests to do.....
PeterVRC is offline Find More Posts by PeterVRC
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Skyzone Goggles - Button Shield
Reply With Quote
Old May 07, 2013, 04:04 AM
Registered User
anlucas's Avatar
Greece, Attica, Athens
Joined May 2011
3,496 Posts
Don't go crazy about sanding the exhaust out to 60mm like I did. I believe that 58mm is a good compromise to have the highest speed possible. Nighthawk ran his DPS on 56mm and it was really moving.

The L2855-2300kv on 5S is a moderate setup and pretty borderline for continuous WOT use. It gets hot and can melt the plastic mount. An alloy housing is a better choice.
anlucas is online now Find More Posts by anlucas
Reply With Quote
Old May 07, 2013, 05:41 AM
Registered User
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
11,508 Posts
Well I have about 58mm now.
But that is that last thing to try, after all the inlet side increases.
Time to go out now and do some testing......
PeterVRC is offline Find More Posts by PeterVRC
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Skyzone Goggles - Button Shield
Reply With Quote
Old May 07, 2013, 02:03 PM
Registered User
Manu Simon's Avatar
Belgium
Joined Aug 2008
1,570 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by anlucas View Post
The L2855-2300kv on 5S is a moderate setup and pretty borderline for continuous WOT use. It gets hot and can melt the plastic mount. An alloy housing is a better choice.
Yes I won't recommend any continuous WOT use of the L2855-2300 kv on 5S either. I fly my panther at 60%-70% most of the time which already gives a good scale looking speed and only goes WOT for 5-10 sec at a time. Timer is set to 4.5 minutes using 3000 mah batteries and I usually land with cells around 3,7 - 3,75 volt.

The great thing with the CS10 L2855-2300 kv combo is that it is cheap and light thus well suited for Hand Launch.
Manu Simon is offline Find More Posts by Manu Simon
Reply With Quote
Old May 07, 2013, 02:18 PM
Registered User
disho's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Durham
Joined Apr 2011
230 Posts
Well i got out yesterday to test fly the panther, setup, 12blade cs, bl32, 3300 35 / 70 c nano tec , wow flys so well and boy she is fast, well pleased
disho is offline Find More Posts by disho
Reply With Quote
Old May 08, 2013, 06:37 AM
FLY HARD OR FLY HOME TO MUMMY
jb0005's Avatar
Joined Jan 2011
195 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
I must have been thinking of the Sea Vixen.
Gee, getting the Lander alloy into the T-45 will be a bit more fun! A fair effort to get a plain CS10 housing into it.

I will do tests on the "no-grill" lower cheater, plus the 'open top cheaters', and then the "sanded open to the Nth degree" exhaust ! LOL.
I am expecting to see good gains from the "No-Grill" test right away. Hmm... need to do the "No Wing" test too really....

I guess maybe the "power eating", which I am referencing off the Dynam Meteor and/or TianSheng F-16 because they both do far longer flight times, could be partly because of the HIGH drag of the Panther. So it 'eats' power just to fly somewhat fast (much slower than those prior two, which are both very slick and low drag airframes).

I reckon a good motor KV for 6S, to be more efficient and suited to the slower aircraft type it is, would be 2000kv area. Not 2200kv. I think that because the 6S 2200kv is capable ot 'too much' thrust, which can't even be fed, or get out, anyway. So by 70% throttle you are burning power for nothing. And if you run at lower throttle level you are then burning power in the ESC anyway... thus the optimal is not to use a combo that 'over-drives' the airframes ducting ability anyway, and just settle for 'slower' flight - like the real F9F was versus F-16 anyway.

The L2855-2300kv on 5S is probably a good combo for it!
And the next level, before reaching 'over-driven', would be the Freewing 2300kv 2839 on 5S... because it does X amount more power output than the L2855 as it is a more capable motor. eg maybe 100g to 200g more thrust. Which the Lander, or CP IR550-2200kv (which is in mine), also do on 5S, except they weigh a lot more.

Hmmm, I also need to test 5S.... as it could very well be equal to it on 6S, seeing the 6S level is possibly notably stunted anyway.
A whole BUNCH of tests to do.....
you can hang a jet engine off a cessna if you want to , but it will only go so fast...i think you will find that this thing is limited by both the ducting and the drag of the airframe...sometimes less is more?
jb0005 is offline Find More Posts by jb0005
Reply With Quote
Old May 08, 2013, 10:13 AM
Always Fly 2 Mistakes High!
RGS2010's Avatar
Houston, Texas
Joined Mar 2010
3,646 Posts
I'm quite happy with the 5S setup on mine (CP IR-550-2800-40) w/ 100 amp ESC and 5 amp external BEC. It's at least 20% faster on top end and much better punch on bottom end.

I'm not looking for blazing speed, just something that doesn't lag and I can fly on 60-75% power and not almost 100% like I did on 4S setup.

Russ
RGS2010 is offline Find More Posts by RGS2010
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Catch Up 2013-2014
Reply With Quote
Old May 09, 2013, 01:35 AM
Registered User
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
11,508 Posts
Well I took off the Grille..... thrust is still 1.3Kg max. (2.1Kg on the bench).
Then having the hatch off didn't change a thing.
Feeling airflow at the main wing linlets shows there isn't a lot being sucked in there - no 'vacuum cleaner' suction to show they are greatly needed. Just a 'medium/low' flow there.
This suggests the input side has plenty of air source straight from the underside cheater, even if maybe it is not geat air FLOW (smooth).... and that the OUTPUT side is the thing stunting it so much. So now it is time to do some more exhaust sanding....
And if I need to, after that testing, I can throw in a thrust tube - which couldn't be a bad idea to have anyway.
Then... maybe I will make up some 'flow smoothing' around the wing inlets, around all the 'junk' that is in its way there. As that couldn't hurt help those inlets be more productive when the plane is moving/flying.
PeterVRC is offline Find More Posts by PeterVRC
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Skyzone Goggles - Button Shield
Reply With Quote
Old May 09, 2013, 04:54 AM
Registered User
anlucas's Avatar
Greece, Attica, Athens
Joined May 2011
3,496 Posts
Peter,

I am in the same boat as you are. I also get around 1.4Kg thrust from the 2300kv combo. I can tell you that sanding the exhaust will not result in a significant gain but try it by all means.

I also think that a thrust tube may be beneficial.
anlucas is online now Find More Posts by anlucas
Reply With Quote
Old May 09, 2013, 07:47 AM
Registered User
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
11,508 Posts
hehe, but that 2300kv combo is 1.5Kg approx on the bench.
This 2200kv 6s is 2.0kg on the bench...... lots disappearing somewhere!

Took it for a fly and it was the same as before (no grille now).
But after 3mins, and mainly 60% throttle approx, it went LVC and almost into trees! Just got over/past them but to do that I had to keep it right on the edge of stall, then it "fell" some amount as it just ran out of ability to stay in the air - but at least not into trees!! - and I almost got the fall levelled out in time...not quite. THUMP on the retracts.... they didn't like that....
Easy enough to repair.... (snapped the nose gear pin too - which is better than ripping something out!)

But that is a lot of energy.... 3mins of 6S 2650mAH.... for a slowish flight compared to the other 70mm's I have. I reckon the 2300kv 5S Vampire is even faster!
Something is costing it a lot of 'duress' and thus the low output for high input.
It looks scale-like enough speed, but it is just power costly to even do that!
Or maybe... it needs to be made a bit 'slipperier' somehow! The Lander job on wing wiring etc is not the sleekest of finishes, so maybe cleaning everything up to be super flush would help it at least fly some amount more efficiently.
PeterVRC is offline Find More Posts by PeterVRC
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Skyzone Goggles - Button Shield
Reply With Quote
Old May 09, 2013, 08:09 AM
Registered User
anlucas's Avatar
Greece, Attica, Athens
Joined May 2011
3,496 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
hehe, but that 2300kv combo is 1.5Kg approx on the bench.
I get sustained 1.7-1.8Kg on the bench but I use bigger batteries 3700-4000mah 35c (AUW 1.8Kg) which seem to work quite well in the Panther.

I have plenty of power to get to around 80mph.

Had a similar experience when I took the fan out to balance and didn't sit it properly when I put it back in. Barely took off just before some big rocks at the end of the runway and the circuit back for landing was interesting....
anlucas is online now Find More Posts by anlucas
Reply With Quote
Old May 11, 2013, 02:24 AM
Registered User
United Kingdom, England, Beverley
Joined Jan 2013
100 Posts
Hi Disho
Can we have some footage when possible and could you put some of your build tips ie c o g, cheater and where bat went please.

regards

James (Frank)
Frank2351 is offline Find More Posts by Frank2351
Reply With Quote
Old May 11, 2013, 06:47 AM
Registered User
disho's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Durham
Joined Apr 2011
230 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank2351 View Post
Hi Disho
Can we have some footage when possible and could you put some of your build tips ie c o g, cheater and where bat went please.

regards

James (Frank)
Hi, hoping to get out tomorrow if the weather is ok, my camera man is back so should get some video, will take some pics and get them posted
disho is offline Find More Posts by disho
Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2013, 08:44 AM
Registered User
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
11,508 Posts
I didn't end up getting any time to spend on the Panther - too many other projects and flying etc - but after I flew my F-16 that uses the same CPIR550-CS10 combo that is lightning fast (can hit 180kph or so) I was thinking/stewing over the Panthers 'poor' results.....
My F-16 has probably one of the worst inlet side paths, due to major modding to allow 6S to even fit, and that hasn't bothered it to any degree that matters. Though it is still not as terrible as the Panther's pathways.
So I checked the exhaust diameter on that - which I had just kept increasing mm by mm as testing in between showed thrust still gaining - till there was nothing more to remove for more diameter. It is 61mm diameter.

My Panther is 58mm. And I remember how the F-16 just kept gaining and gaining THRUST per mm increase. Which is theoretically" NOT a measure of what top speed it will be able to do - but 180kph for 61mm doesn't show it has any top speed issue!
3mm.... sounds like a very small number to matter.....
But the same happend on my severely stunted 70mm F-15.... going from 800g to 1300g just by opening the two exhausts as much as possible... probably about 3mm more each (and they are quite small areas each)

I did put the inlet grille back on and that made ZERO difference to the static thrust number... so I have left it on. I think that the low use of the wing inlets (when tested) flow path shows that they are not really needed at all when the main cheater is fully open. Thus adding the grille, even if it loses X amount of flow, is easily replaced 100% by those wing inlets.

But I will open the exhaust as large as it can be made to... which looks to me to be somewhere from 60mm to 61mm, if it is taken to the max possible. And I expect that is going to help a LOT.
I can probably even make that have a bit of up thrust, to help/fully counteract cheater DOWNWARDS suction.

I was also thinking about 5S (and 4S) setups.....
I expect that 5S (same motor kv) would probably almost match the 6S thrust level, because 5S does not 'over-flow' the exhaust path, and 6S does - so 6S loses what maximum it could technically achieve.

Hopefully I can get that exhaust stuff done in the next few days.....
I will also fully complete it all then (paint finishing and decals) as every other aspect of it is tested and complete (flaps, retracts, all mods done etc).
PeterVRC is offline Find More Posts by PeterVRC
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Skyzone Goggles - Button Shield
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools