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Old Aug 01, 2008, 12:23 AM
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Newcastle
Joined Oct 2003
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I just ordered the speed control, 2 props, mounting gear and 10 A123 cells. The cells were lighter than the 2 times 5S 4800 lipo that Kahloqwas talking about but yes... Half the capacity. I was thinking that as long as dead weight isn't needed to balance it will mean that my first test flights will be at a lower wing loading. Plus it will give two 5S A123 packs for other projects if I decide to upgrade.

But (after I ordered...) I did the numbers and I think this would not give more than a few minutes flight time?? What Amps do you expect this will pull? I think it will need around 55 - 60A. Is this too much or conservative? I have just cancelled the A123 cell order and need to think a bit more...
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 01:04 AM
Fly allot, Crash allot, next?
United States, CA, Corona
Joined Feb 2006
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OK, I'm going to do it again, stick my neck out and hopefully it doesn't get cut off.

I think the 123s are overrated for motors that suck power. Yes they can discharge quickly, and they can charge quickly. However, I tried them in my Thunder Tiger Sea Fury, Hacker 60 motor, 10S2P, that is 20 123 batteries.

The motor ran great for a minute, but, I watched the volts drop like an anchor and the duration was very short. I think these batteries work better in efficient motor applications, and not all motors are efficient. Just to make matter worse, my 10S 123 charger would not recognize the 10s 123 batteries for re-charge, the volts were too low after running them.

So, I am waiting for guys like Cubano to post again so that he can give us a refresher course on 123 battery application, until then, it's ordinary lipos for me.
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 06:31 AM
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Emerald Isle , NC
Joined May 2006
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Oh no .....stirring the A123Pudding again....Good thing you and that ol MAdMax dude live far away from each other...LOL

In this plane Lipos is the ticket......you want , light , fast and powerful.
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 06:42 AM
"NAVY CHIEFS"
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NAF Atsugi, Japan
Joined Jul 2005
628 Posts
AL,
You could be right about A123's but I abuse them so much a Lipo could not keep up . I have ran my A123's so far down they just don't put out. But they always recover. But the biggest motor I have used with them is a 4130-T8.

Mike
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 06:59 AM
One cell short of a Pack
steve1814's Avatar
Good ole Smithsburg, MD
Joined Mar 2007
1,909 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCALEFAN
OK, I'm going to do it again, stick my neck out and hopefully it doesn't get cut off.

I think the 123s are overrated for motors that suck power. Yes they can discharge quickly, and they can charge quickly. However, I tried them in my Thunder Tiger Sea Fury, Hacker 60 motor, 10S2P, that is 20 123 batteries.

The motor ran great for a minute, but, I watched the volts drop like an anchor and the duration was very short. I think these batteries work better in efficient motor applications, and not all motors are efficient. Just to make matter worse, my 10S 123 charger would not recognize the 10s 123 batteries for re-charge, the volts were too low after running them.

So, I am waiting for guys like Cubano to post again so that he can give us a refresher course on 123 battery application, until then, it's ordinary lipos for me.
Hey Al,

While I agree with you about using Lipo's in this bird, I also use A123's in numerous 80" birds that don't have such a high wing loading. I like the cost and convenience (i roll my own packs) of the A123's, but they are heavy and short in the tooth with only 2300 Mah compared to Lipos. To get good performance out of this bird would require 10S2P at the least, and that is just too much weight!

As I'm sure you know, to get the same voltage from A123's as a standard lipo you usually have to add a cell. The voltage does drop considerably, but that is the design of the cell. It does hold that "lower" voltage till the very end though and that is nice - well to me anyway. Now in the floaters like a Cub, Husky, Telemaster or just about any other high wing model, A123's are great and that is all I use in them, but in wardbird conversions I don't even consider them. If the model was designed for both electric or gas/glo power then I'll consider using the A123's.

In a nutshell: it depends on the model!

Now, with a show of hands, how many of you think that Nitroplanes will ship the 109's out on or near the 8th?

Cheers,
Steve
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 07:11 AM
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Emerald Isle , NC
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Well said Steve.
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 08:52 AM
Fly allot, Crash allot, next?
United States, CA, Corona
Joined Feb 2006
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We'll have to start a new build thread when the 109 finally arrives, Coastwatcher and Kahlog?

Why to I rant sometimes? It's not ranting, I am taken wrong, it's just I was expecting more and I got less. Nobody can see faces and we are not fiction authors that can adequately describe exactly what we are thinking.

I am let down, that is my problem. I have these (20) 123 batteries and based on the weight factor, the Sea Fury installation should have worked, it didn't. Am I restricted to using 123s in my giant Cub and other similar airplanes. I already have them in my Cub and they fly it great.

Cubano, Herm, the other 123 experts have stopped posting and I forgot what was to be learned. In addition, the 123 prices have gone up with oil. Right now, I want to know how to test these suckers, how do you get a 123 charger to get the count right when the voltage falls below 3.3 volts per cell?

At 10S2P, 4400mah, they should last longer than 2 minutes powering an E-Flite 160, or 110, shouldn't they?

Al
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 09:14 AM
One cell short of a Pack
steve1814's Avatar
Good ole Smithsburg, MD
Joined Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCALEFAN
Cubano, Herm, the other 123 experts have stopped posting and I forgot what was to be learned. In addition, the 123 prices have gone up with oil. Right now, I want to know how to test these suckers, how do you get a 123 charger to get the count right when the voltage falls below 3.3 volts per cell?

At 10S2P, 4400mah, they should last longer than 2 minutes powering an E-Flite 160, or 110, shouldn't they?

Al
Al,

you should ask everydayflyer about the A123's. He has tested them to high heaven and is IMO THE one to go to for all A123 questions. In my limited knowledge and based on average current draw from a power 110 I would guess 7-9 minute flights at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle.

When I build packs from salvaged DeWalt packs I usually have a couple of cells that are below 2.0 volts. If I have the time, I charge them individually and get the 10/12 cycles out of the way early. If I had put the pack together already, I usually just charge them up without balancing on my Hyperion 1210i @ 3 -5 amps with a cell voltage checker like this one on the balance taps until the low cells reach 2.6 volts and then finish the charge on my 2 old but trusty FMA balance Pro HD's.

I get my packs for $90.00 shipped, with the caveat that one/two cells out of ten may be bad. 70 cells/7packs and I haven't had a bad one yet (knock on wood)


Cheers,
Steve
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 10:43 AM
DELTAS RULE
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tehachapi, CA
Joined Jan 2006
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i have this motor in my TT bearcat. i was a little suprised at first as well, but its a GREAT motor. im running mine on 8s, with a 20-x13 apc cut down to about 19" its making 1500W on 2 4350 poly 4s packs in series. pulls the bird around very nicely. id recomend 9s or 10s for those looking to hit 80-90mph. the bearcat goes about 75, maybe 80 from a shallow dive. good luck with the 109, its a nice model!


edit: BTW, ive ran this motor static in varied throttle ranges for a full pack, about 7-8 minutes, and the motor was barely warm. its also very quiet and very smooth with those HUGE bearings!








Quote:
Originally Posted by J.E. Johnson
HI guys. My motor arrived today but it is not what I ordered. I ordered this:

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=4188

but I got a Tunigy instead. The specs are the same - 6364 230KV.

Should I be upset by this? I can't find the Turnigy on the UH website.

I am a bit pissed off but I don't know enough about these motors.
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 01:13 PM
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Emerald Isle , NC
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COrsairnut I have found basically the same thing. I ( personally ) could be happy with 8S on this size plane , with realized speeds 70+ for my 8S SPitfire. But to attain the WOW!! expressions from your fellow club members you'll need 10S , or the type stuff that makes the glow boys turn green. I plan on a compromise at the moment of 9S with about 65amp max. ........you can ALWAYS add more CELLS . Thats why I over ESC everything.
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Old Aug 01, 2008, 08:40 PM
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Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
Joined Dec 2005
7,821 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coastwatcher
COrsairnut I have found basically the same thing. I ( personally ) could be happy with 8S on this size plane , with realized speeds 70+ for my 8S SPitfire. But to attain the WOW!! expressions from your fellow club members you'll need 10S , or the type stuff that makes the glow boys turn green. I plan on a compromise at the moment of 9S with about 65amp max. ........you can ALWAYS add more CELLS . Thats why I over ESC everything.
LOL...I was one of those glow guys that got beat hands down by a 12s H9 1.50 P-51 while i was litterly put-putting around on a saito 220 relative to his. And...his was limited to 75% throttle, so basically a 9s setup if using WOT. Hence why this time, this plane will be 10s
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Old Aug 02, 2008, 12:41 AM
Fly allot, Crash allot, next?
United States, CA, Corona
Joined Feb 2006
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Steve,

Where do you get your packs? Ebay prices have gone sky high.

Kahlog,

Stop getting beat, put a turbo charger on the Saito. LOL
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Old Aug 02, 2008, 09:13 AM
One cell short of a Pack
steve1814's Avatar
Good ole Smithsburg, MD
Joined Mar 2007
1,909 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCALEFAN
Steve,

Where do you get your packs? Ebay prices have gone sky high.

Kahlog,

Stop getting beat, put a turbo charger on the Saito. LOL
Contact jschick here on the board - he is a DeWalt recycler. Since discovering his prices, I haven't purchased them anywhere else. If they were anything but A123's I would be hesitant, but these cells are so robust that I don't worry. As I said before, thus far I have purchased 70 cells (7 packs) and haven't had one cell 'bad' yet.

I'll have to show you guys an easy method of how I test the cells right in the DeWalt battery holder. It is really quite simple: for those uninitiated with the removal of the cells from a deWalt pack, click here
Anyway...the two side pieces that have the balancing taps on them are perfect for testing the cells without complete disassembly. To make things easier, I divided the Dewalt taps into two 5 cells taps by cutting the tab between cell 5 and 6, thus creating two 5S1P packs. I made a harness that ties into the DeWalt taps and plug the harness into either my Balance Pros or the Hyperion 1210i. Now I can find out which cells are low, I can charger or discharge at high currents and test the pack without having to build the pack first - saves me a lot of time as I can now disassemble the pack knowing what state the individual batteries are in. If a couple of cells are low and I get an error on my charger(s) I just do a quick, non balance charge on the Hyperion (that capability is the reason, I'll never get rid of it) and monitor the cells with my little cell gadget until the cells will be recognized and then finish the charge using the Balance Pros. I like the Balance Pros because of their high bleed (800 mAh) capability, vs. 300 mAh on the Hyperion - makes the balancing go a LOT faster. The Cell Pro 10 is faster, (1A) but not so much faster to warrant the cost of replacement. Once all that is sorted, I now have 10 well balanced cells to build packs from, and all of that without first having to grind all those damn tabs off and test the individual cells (which takes forever).

Cheers,
Steve
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Old Aug 02, 2008, 04:41 PM
Fly allot, Crash allot, next?
United States, CA, Corona
Joined Feb 2006
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Steve,

Thanks for referral.

Testing batteries,

Once you cut the tab between 5 and 6, you could just use a voltmeter on each cell to test it. If you have a low cell, use could also use allegator clips with wires to the charger to just charge one cell. Since you broke the circut when you cut the tab from 5 to 6, each battery is isolated and probes from your voltmeter, plus and minus should tell the tale.

Am I right?

Al
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Old Aug 02, 2008, 08:30 PM
One cell short of a Pack
steve1814's Avatar
Good ole Smithsburg, MD
Joined Mar 2007
1,909 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCALEFAN
Steve,

Thanks for referral.

Testing batteries,

Once you cut the tab between 5 and 6, you could just use a voltmeter on each cell to test it. If you have a low cell, use could also use allegator clips with wires to the charger to just charge one cell. Since you broke the circut when you cut the tab from 5 to 6, each battery is isolated and probes from your voltmeter, plus and minus should tell the tale.

Am I right?

Al
Al,

Cells 1-5 and 6-10 are still physically connected and not isolated with just breaking the tab between 5 and 6. But, you sure can check each cell with a voltmeter, even when all 10 are still connected, AND I suppose you could charge the cells individually with clips while still connected to each other. I'd rather let these durn expensive chargers I bought do the work for me!! I still get to have my 'fun' grinding all those welded tabs off and making the packs.

For those who are just starting out, and need a simple way to check the cells, your method is best (for checking voltage). As for charging, I always balance charge my packs- I have enough to cycle a few through the airframe and then take a break from flying while they are all charging again. I personally have never done it, but once you have balanced/cycled the A123's about 10/15 times they start becoming 'self-balancing' and you could then just zip charge them at 20A! That'll get you back up and flyin' quick!

Anyone got any shipping updates on the 109? Anyones card charged yet?

Cheers,
Steve
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