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Old Sep 02, 2012, 09:55 AM
Gorilla Glue Expert
PikeStaff's Avatar
United States, PA, Doylestown
Joined Sep 2010
2,838 Posts
Question......

Has anyone tried using flaperons on this model?

I programmed them in, and with what I would call nominal deflection - about 15* is all. But what I'm finding is really unsettling, both to me and the airplane. After moving around to find an acceptable CG (right around 144 - 145mm back from LE root), I figured it was time to try the flaperons on a landing.

Holy cow.... plane instantly dropped its nose to about a 60* angle, and took almost all of the up-elevator I have in it to recover. Speed-wise they do seem to kill off a bit, but the added throttle to keep it nose-up pretty much offsets any advantage they should be offering. If speed is up to begin with, it's less prominent, but very much still there.

Maybe the surface area of the ails is too big to become an effective flap - the real ones use a mighty small (for plane size) flap, plus it begins right at the fuse, keeping it much closer to the plane's centerline.

Doesn't look like I'll be using them again.... really got my heart pumping that first time, 30' off the deck and headed doggone near straight in.
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Old Sep 02, 2012, 11:04 AM
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dmaaero's Avatar
United States, NC, Jacksonville
Joined Jan 2010
249 Posts
Pike my settings are,
low high
ail 7mm 12mm
elev 15mm 25mm
cg 140-145mm depending on battery
flaps 9mm down or 15 degrees any more seems to lose ail control to me
elev mix to flap 3mm up
any time you use flaps make sure your on high rates !
It slows to a crawl with flaps especially into the wind.
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Old Sep 02, 2012, 11:34 PM
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United States, LA, Bossier City
Joined Aug 2008
875 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeStaff View Post
Has anyone tried using flaperons on this model?

I programmed them in, and with what I would call nominal deflection - about 15* is all. But what I'm finding is really unsettling, both to me and the airplane. After moving around to find an acceptable CG (right around 144 - 145mm back from LE root), I figured it was time to try the flaperons on a landing.

Holy cow.... plane instantly dropped its nose to about a 60* angle, and took almost all of the up-elevator I have in it to recover. Speed-wise they do seem to kill off a bit, but the added throttle to keep it nose-up pretty much offsets any advantage they should be offering. If speed is up to begin with, it's less prominent, but very much still there.

Maybe the surface area of the ails is too big to become an effective flap - the real ones use a mighty small (for plane size) flap, plus it begins right at the fuse, keeping it much closer to the plane's centerline.

Doesn't look like I'll be using them again.... really got my heart pumping that first time, 30' off the deck and headed doggone near straight in.

Makes sense, though....

flaps down moves the center of lift aft, and so nose will want to pitch over (down).
if your radio can do it, you'd want to program in some up elevator to offset this, needing some added power to help drive it in.
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Old Sep 02, 2012, 11:59 PM
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United States, PA, Doylestown
Joined Sep 2010
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Thanks, all

DM, thank you for the info; I'm not too far out from what you use but also set 35% expo on both lo and hi rates to de-sensitize the ailerons a bit. I'm just heavy-handed and needed expo to smooth out my inputs.

Clams, the radio can add the link to up elevator and this would sure take some of the Whoa! reaction out. This is the first plane I've had that reacts so violently to flaps down; I suspect you're on the money with moving center of pressure rearward, and since this one (mine, anyway....) is so gawdawful sensitive to balance in the first place, moving it rearward is gonna produce an instantaneous nose dive. Which is exactly what it does.

Meh. Nose-hi approaches slow it down a bunch too, but make it tough to keep the turkey feathers off the pavement. Maybe I need to program in some up elevator and see how that works.

Thanks again, guys.
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Old Sep 11, 2012, 12:34 AM
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Grand Blanc, MI
Joined Jan 2007
481 Posts
Got a lot of flight time of my F-4 at E-jets this weekend. Had a lot of bouncy landings, I also had one perfect landing where I stayed on the mains for
about 10 ft before putting the nose down. One of the best landings I've ever had. Certainly the most scale looking landing I've ever had in an F-4.
Also took it out tonight for two flights......I bellylanded both times.
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Old Sep 11, 2012, 01:05 PM
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United States, VA, Suffolk
Joined Nov 2007
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Mine is the exact opposite. Mine pitches up and I have zero elevator authority when I lower the flaperons to about 15-20 degrees. I even programmed them to drop nice and slow so as to not suddenly disrupt airflow, no help....

Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeStaff View Post
Has anyone tried using flaperons on this model?

I programmed them in, and with what I would call nominal deflection - about 15* is all. But what I'm finding is really unsettling, both to me and the airplane. After moving around to find an acceptable CG (right around 144 - 145mm back from LE root), I figured it was time to try the flaperons on a landing.

Holy cow.... plane instantly dropped its nose to about a 60* angle, and took almost all of the up-elevator I have in it to recover. Speed-wise they do seem to kill off a bit, but the added throttle to keep it nose-up pretty much offsets any advantage they should be offering. If speed is up to begin with, it's less prominent, but very much still there.

Maybe the surface area of the ails is too big to become an effective flap - the real ones use a mighty small (for plane size) flap, plus it begins right at the fuse, keeping it much closer to the plane's centerline.

Doesn't look like I'll be using them again.... really got my heart pumping that first time, 30' off the deck and headed doggone near straight in.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 11:47 PM
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United States, TX, Grapevine
Joined Jul 2012
747 Posts
Trying to keep this thread alive. Replaced the stock power system with the eflite 3600 kv motor, 60a esc and v15 fan and put it in the air today for a few flights. Much improved! Much happier with the performance I saw today.
This evening, I added a rudder. Should help keep the nose up in the turns.
Anyone put the eflite retracts in this Phantom yet?
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Old Sep 29, 2012, 08:11 AM
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Grand Blanc, MI
Joined Jan 2007
481 Posts
This thread won't die for quite some time. I've been really busy
flying/fixing mine...and other planes. I do have some vids I'll post later.
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Old Sep 29, 2012, 10:16 AM
Why am I addicted!!!
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United States, IL, Columbia
Joined Jan 2008
557 Posts
Please don't kill thread.... I AM GOING TO NEED IT... LOL
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Old Sep 29, 2012, 10:23 AM
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Grand Blanc, MI
Joined Jan 2007
481 Posts
This thread won't die for years to come. I'm actually going out with
mine as soon as the batteries are charged.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 12:33 PM
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Canada, ON, Newmarket
Joined Dec 2005
106 Posts
going to do some kit bashing, need some help

I've been flying this summer with an E-flite DeltaV-15 setup and 4S 3300 battery. I've been having so much fun with it that I've purchased a second airframe kit and am making the following changes:

1) Change power system a lander 68mm 6S (700-800W) . I 'm going to use 2200 3S batteries in series to power the plane. I have lots of these for my pusher planes and they will easily support the amp draw from the lander fan/motor combo.

2) Make another set of wings with more room for retracts and a little more surface area to improve wing loading.

3) Add retracts.

4) change the stab to full flying.

I need a little help with #4. Does anyone know where the pivot needs to be placed and what size servo to use? I've built full flying stabs with smaller/slower airplanes. I just don't know how this translates to larger faster planes. Any help would be appreciated. Especially if there is an area calculation that defines the pivot location.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 03:51 PM
Scale Jet Driver
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United States, TX, Grapevine
Joined Jul 2012
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Wow. Ambitious. I'm also thinking of retracts but haven't made that leap yet. I did put in a rudder which makes the turns and landings much better.

By the way, I also am using the e-flite power setup. What is the C rating on your batteries? I think I may need to "up" the C rating as I think I'm not getting the amperage that the motor is demanding.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 05:41 PM
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Canada, ON, Newmarket
Joined Dec 2005
106 Posts
I have to check when I get home but I'm almost sure their 45-75C.

Also, I have a working rudder on the first plane already. I put that in, covered the plane with 3/4oz glass and WBPU, and modified the exhaust nozzles to get rid of the nose-up issue on full throttle. I did all that based on info I got from previous posts. The maiden was near perfect. Just had to dial down the airleron throws and add exponential.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 08:44 PM
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United States, PA, Doylestown
Joined Sep 2010
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A good list........

Did the rudder from the start after reading in some posts that the plane liked to head nose-down on turns. As small as it appears to be, the rudder really has great authority and is a very welcome add.

Retracts just add to the whole picture; seeing them go up with less than a foot of air under the wings is a wonderful sight. Don't really know if they make much difference to the speed but likely they do add something. They do also add a little weight.... something I don't see this plane taking well. Then again, I also use a Wemo MiniPro with a Velocity Cool42 and big ol' heatsink, AND a Castle Ice 100. Awful lot of weight in those items.

Gonna watch to see how you do the bigger wings and full-flying stab. Likely a good metal gear 20 or 22 gram servo will be more than enough. The bigger wings thing has me interested... what do you have in mind?
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 09:05 PM
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Grand Blanc, MI
Joined Jan 2007
481 Posts
Bigger wings? Very interesting. I added retracts to mine, still didn't
add a rudder.Resolder SU-34 Motors
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