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Old Aug 14, 2008, 06:51 PM
Rush
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It comes with a really lame manual... no mention of the CG position on this plane. So its staying in the box until i get some hard data on CG's. I'm thinking to put a larger lipo 4s 3700 in it...

Does anyone know where the CG position for this F4 would be? My buddy flew his a few days ago and i think the stock position of the lipo makes it tail heavy....

Regards

Rob
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 07:36 PM
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ask your buddy to balance his F4 and tell you what CG his F4 is. Use that CG plus about .5" further back and try that.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rick88ss
What fan,motor, and ESC are you referring to?
You also need to add the shipping cost of the plane and the shipping cost of the parts. But still a good deal.
Fan: 70mm fan 5-blade Wemo mini copy from Hobby City
Motor: FSD 380-2848 inrunner from Bidproduct.com
ESC: SS 50A from Hobby City

On second thought, I would go with the SS 60A (only $5 more) and choose a higher kv FSD inrunner (they have a whole range of kv's to choose from) for 600W or so. These are all great quality components at very low prices because they are being purchased directly from discount overseas operations eliminating US ripoff middlemen. Shipping for the airframe is $30 EMS.

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Old Aug 14, 2008, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by warspite
Does not sound like such a great deal...costs $50 to ship a model like that from the Far East, plus the battery...seems like you are paying more than you would from Hobby Lobby.
You are putting in really cheapo components, too, $3 servos and an $11 ESC, doubt they are any better, if not worse, than those that come with the plane.
I'm not really understanding what a bargain this is, but maybe I am missing something.

$111 for the bare airframe, and $50 shipping, save $100 or so if you already have the components, sounds okay, but not really a bargain...guess there is no free lunch.
It is a good deal considering that the stock powerset and servos are the absolute cheapest (in quality) stuff they stick in these ridiculously overpriced ARF/PNP foamies. The Hobby City components are low in cost but pretty high in quality; most people are just used to paying over-hyped, heavily advertised middleman ripoff prices for similar items so they immediately assume that anything this cheap has got to be poor in quality but that isn't the case.

Another huge advantage to buying your own components is that you can choose the parts to meet your own performance goals. For another 5 bucks you can get the SS 60A (these ESC's are actually made by Suppo, one of the largest OEM esc manufacturers) and go for one of the stout FSD inrunners in the 3600-3800kv range which should give you 600-700W. That's far more than the stock setup is capable of (45A ESC is a giveaway, I'd be willing to bet the included 4S pack is only 15- 20C which isn't worth that much).

The bottom line is if you want convenience, you may well pay for it in lack of quality/performance.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867666

BTW, shipping from eflypower is $30 via EMS (registered airmail, 2-4 days service), not $50. HL gets $9 shipping by ground. You can't compare the two services; you will most likely get the EMS shipment from HK before you get the HL shipment by ground freight depending on where you live.

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Old Aug 15, 2008, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubletap
It is a good deal considering that the stock powerset and servos are the absolute cheapest (in quality) stuff they stick in these ridiculously overpriced ARF/PNP foamies. The Hobby City components are low in cost but pretty high in quality; most people are just used to paying over-hyped, heavily advertised middleman ripoff prices for similar items so they immediately assume that anything this cheap has got to be poor in quality but that isn't the case.

Another huge advantage to buying your own components is that you can choose the parts to meet your own performance goals. For another 5 bucks you can get the SS 60A (these ESC's are actually made by Suppo, one of the largest OEM esc manufacturers) and go for one of the stout FSD inrunners in the 3600-3800kv range which should give you 600-700W. That's far more than the stock setup is capable of (45A ESC is a giveaway, I'd be willing to bet the included 4S pack is only 15- 20C which isn't worth that much).

The bottom line is if you want convenience, you may well pay for it in lack of quality/performance.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867666

BTW, shipping from eflypower is $30 via EMS (registered airmail, 2-4 days service), not $50. HL gets $9 shipping by ground. You can't compare the two services; you will most likely get the EMS shipment from HK before you get the HL shipment by ground freight depending on where you live.

Doubletap
Exactly which of the many RTF EDF models out there have you bought, and which ones had bad components?
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warspite
Exactly which of the many RTF EDF models out there have you bought, and which ones had bad components?
In my case, I've bought a StarMax F-18 Viper, Grand Dist FoxHawk, and Sapac F-22. The only one with glitchy electrics was the F-22. One of the elevator servos and one of the ESC's were bad.

Didn't bother me, though, since I was planning on upgrading to 4s power and would need to replace those parts anyway...that said, it is still unsat that they would be AFU right out of the box.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:16 AM
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Most of the Starmax RTF models seem grosly underpowered if nothing else and I have heard the included batteries aren't so great.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rick88ss
Did it fly fast while it lasted? How fast would you say it flew with the stock setup?
I would guess it was hitting right between 60-70. I would bet if you took the gear off and hand launched it would easily bust 75.
It was faster than the HL Rafale w/o gear.

Jeff
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by VF84Sluggo
In my case, I've bought a StarMax F-18 Viper, Grand Dist FoxHawk, and Sapac F-22. The only one with glitchy electrics was the F-22. One of the elevator servos and one of the ESC's were bad.

Didn't bother me, though, since I was planning on upgrading to 4s power and would need to replace those parts anyway...that said, it is still unsat that they would be AFU right out of the box.
That has been similar to my own experience. I have had about 20 of these RTF EDFS and maybe four or five bad components out of the hundreds of components in those planes. I hope Sapac took care of you with new components, they should.
On the other hand, I've ordered a lot of electronics from HobbyCity, and while most were okay, it was certainly at least the same, if not higher, of a failure rate than the ones that are included in the RTFs.
I've also found that you can usually find the exact same components that you get from HobbyCity already in these RTFs. Like, Hobbywing controllers, and Hextronic servos. The Hobbywing stuff still has the Hobbywing labels on, the Hextronics ones were the same servos with no label. Exact same stuff. So to be saying you are somehow going to be getting higher quality stuff if you order it from HobbyCity instead of getting it with the plane, that's a big joke, as the stuff is all coming out of the same factories.
On the other hand, if you just want to upgrade to get much more watts than the stock setup, then by all means, go for the foam-only version from overseas. I wonder if Hobby Lobby has an exclusive on this plane for the USA, though?
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Socomon
Most of the Starmax RTF models seem grosly underpowered if nothing else and I have heard the included batteries aren't so great.
Which Starmax planes do you own?

I have the F-18, F-4, and F-18c, none of which are underpowered at all.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:43 AM
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I don't have any of them. Fellow club members have the F-18 and I was very underwhelmed. Same with the Art-Tech Su-27 - what a dog.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socomon
Most of the Starmax RTF models seem grosly underpowered if nothing else and I have heard the included batteries aren't so great.
Hmmm, the Viper seems fair at best, but not nearly as underpowered as the Foxhawk...sorry for the off-topic response, folks.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 09:48 AM
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One has only to watch the ample amount of videos put out by the manufacturers and end users on the net to see that the performance of the vast majority of these RTF/PNP toy planes is generally mediocre. But in all fairness, these planes are designed to be parkflyers so perhaps they are fine for their intended purpose.

Doubletap

- yes, I also apologize for going so far OT. Let's get back to the original purpose of this thread.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Socomon
I don't have any of them. Fellow club members have the F-18 and I was very underwhelmed. Same with the Art-Tech Su-27 - what a dog.
Ah. You don't actually have any of them. Was just wondering.
Doubletap, which RTF jets do you own, and which components have been bad?


My F18 was clocked at 76mph out of a dive, and gets along just fine, fun to fly.
The SU27 is not fast, but has enough power to be fun, it's more torque than speed, and it's fun to fly, looks great in the air. The older brushed one with camo did not look nearly as good, the Russian Knights paint job is much more attractive.

My Fox Hawk takes off in fifty feet and gets around just fine, you can do as many loops as you want from level flight, I like it a lot.

The newer version, the Sapac T-45, has an outrunner motor and much more power, but I like both versions just fine.

As you say, these are park flyers, they are not intended to go 100 miles per hour.

If you want very high performance, you can modify then as you see fit, but there's no free lunch, if you add a lot of power and weight, the plane will fly differently.

But to say they are all dogs, with junk components, out of the box, that's just not so.

And performance keeps getting higher, too. The Starmax F-4 and F-18c are high performance, and I'm looking forward to getting this one, the Famous Models F-4, also. People right above are saying they are doing 70mph out of the box, that's plenty for me and most others.

$30 shipping for a plane from the Far East sounds great, it has been my experience, from having ordered a bunch of them, that a jet foamy costs $42-55 to ship. How many have you shipped here, Doubletap.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by warspite
Doubletap, which RTF jets do you own, and which components have been bad?
Why would I buy any of these toy RTF's EDF's especially when it's very clear they are overpriced? Of course I don't own any of them, but if the price is right, I would be tempted to buy one because it's a matter of risk/reward. A perfect example of this is how HobbyCity sells some of these exact same jets (F-35, L-39) for half the price of what some of the other retailers sell them for.

As far as poor quality components in RTF/PNP toys are concerned, that is common knowledge and is not limited to any one brand. Most manufacturers are actually integrators/assemblers and do not manufacture anything in house. They purchase electronic components by the pallet and typically from the cheapest source to maximize their margins. Read enough threads and you will notice the same pattern of complaints. If you like anecdotes, here's one for you. There is a well known seller on Ebay that sells LOTS of defective or damaged Parkzone RTF's and others (most likely rejects/returns from Horizon and other retailers). He typically sells them in lots of 3-6 planes but sometimes he will sell them by the pallet. He carefully describes what is wrong with each unit and more often than not it is the electronics that are doa, namely servos, ESC's receivers, tx's etc. Like I said, the phenomenon is not brand specific and makes business sense to the manufacturer/assembler to minimize their cost to maximize margins. What makes it worse for the consumer is the middleman/retailer will add on their own enourmous margin and what you end up with is an overpriced, poor quality toy. Here's another one for you. Great Planes (major US label) has the Synapse EDF which has gained a very bad reputation for failing servos. If you've been around these forums long enough and read enough threads regarding these toys, you will see the trend. Whether or not I have purchased any of these toys is irrelevant; anyone can form an educated opinion based on information gleaned from other sources.

FYI, I have owned some RTF toys (prop planes and helis) and have had to replace quite a few poor quality components that were doa or failed quickly for no obvious reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warspite
If you want very high performance, you can modify then as you see fit, but there's no free lunch, if you add a lot of power and weight, the plane will fly differently.
Sure, you can modify them but that defeats the purpose if you paid $200 for something just to throw out all the components. That is the reason why many of us prefer "airframe only" versions so we can choose our own components. Even so, this is off topic and should be discussed elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warspite
And performance keeps getting higher, too. The Starmax F-4 and F-18c are high performance, and I'm looking forward to getting this one, the Famous Models F-4, also. People right above are saying they are doing 70mph out of the box, that's plenty for me and most others.
Sure, I agree they are getting better in performance and cheaper in price which equals better value for the consumer. But the reason for this trend is because people like me and many others vote with our wallets and influence the free market to provide better products at cheaper prices. That is why we voice our opinions openly about the shortcomings of these toy planes. I won't just take it sitting down and blindly slap down my hard earned cash for just any garbage they throw our way and at any price they ask. That's just being smart.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867666

Quote:
Originally Posted by warspite
$30 shipping for a plane from the Far East sounds great, it has been my experience, from having ordered a bunch of them, that a jet foamy costs $42-55 to ship. How many have you shipped here, Doubletap.
It depends on which service you select. I've had shipped plenty of planes from all over the world and I am familiar with the different costs of competing services from different countries. The $30 EMS shipping was quoted by another member in this thread who actually purchased one and that sounds about right IMO for a package of this weight and volume. I have no reason to not believe him. But then again, what does this have to do with the original topic?

Once again, this is totally off topic and quite frankly rude to the OP so this is my last post regarding this matter. If you want to extol the virtues of these overpriced foamies, why don't you go to the appropriate thread and post in there?

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867666

Chances are you will not convince anyone that these toy planes which probably cost all of $10 USD to produce (compare the average per capita income of a Chinese family vs. US family to get an idea of what things cost to manufacture over there) are worth $200+ by the time it gets to the consumer.

I'm finished participating in this very rude and improper thread jacking. If you want to continue this off-topic conversation, start a new thread, PM me, or take it to the proper existing thread please.


Doubletap
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