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Old Jul 15, 2008, 12:45 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Discussion
ESL Hand launch contests - modifications

Guys,
this is the thread used to discuss alterations to the way hand launch contests are run.

Two topics have been started in another thread:
1. separating Experts from Sportsmen and the ramifications of doing so
2. Deviating from F3K tasks

To bring everyone up to speed. A contest was held where experts were flown in a separate group from the Sportsmen. It has been suggested that this can cause problems with advancement and the MOM format. My feelings were that due to the minimum number of Experts, it would not be statistically significant to have the experts fly in separate groups where there would only be one or two experts per group so they were all kept together.

As for coming up with different tasks, it was my thinking that we might introduce one or two new ones to further challenge the experts and possibly increase the current number of tasks being offered. Plus I figured guys might come knowing that there were new and exciting tasks offered here. I think Poway

The floor is open for discussion.

Let's keep this civilized, we are all friends here.

Frank
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 12:48 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
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Frank,

To keep it fair, could you do this over the ESL mailing list, there other ELS people who don't belong to RGC can participate such as the score keeper and other who have been around for a while

or at lest "1. separating Experts from Sportsmen and the ramifications of doing so" which should be discussed in the ESL

Thank you

Jose
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 12:57 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
2,110 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2High

As for coming up with different tasks, it was my thinking that we might introduce one or two new ones to further challenge the experts and possibly increase the current number of tasks being offered. Plus I figured guys might come knowing that there were new and exciting tasks offered here. I think Poway

The floor is open for discussion.

Let's keep this civilized, we are all friends here.

Frank
Just as a background, I have been flying contests TD/DLG in the East Coast since 1998, and always flowned what the CD serves, I was trained that way by my club and one of my favorite CD John Huff - you eat what you are served - and I believe that strongly

Now, I may kid you about a particular task, I really don't care what you put in the menu, since we are all flying the same... However, I have my favorite tasks and those are just little highlights during the course of a day

My preference would be F3K all the way, but Frank I fly what every you put in front of me and really has no effect on my experience, you do an excellent job with your contest and I always enjoy flying at LISF
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 01:29 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
Fly2High's Avatar
United States, NY, Plainview
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeb
Frank,

To keep it fair, could you do this over the ESL mailing list, there other ELS people who don't belong to RGC can participate such as the score keeper and other who have been around for a while

or at lest "1. separating Experts from Sportsmen and the ramifications of doing so" which should be discussed in the ESL

Thank you

Jose
what is the email address to do that. for some reason, I misplaced it or have the wrong one in my contacts.

Jose, could you start one?

Thanks
Frank

If you guys feel this should be kept behind closed doors, then I will close this thread.

As for having a mixed or separation of Experts and Sportsmen, part of the reason I love hand launch is because I get to fly with top guys. Unfortunately, no where in the F3K rules does it state what to do in this manner.

On the other side, to be able to hand out trophies, the scores must be significant. If we ran a contest with only one expert and a bunch of sportsmen, chances are the expert will win. If all the experts get 1000 points for every round, we will have to have a fly off since the dropping of a score as F3K suggests will not solve the problem.

I believe the separation was done to make the Expert scores have statistical meaning and to be able to declare a winner in each category. Whether they can discern how one group scored versus another is a different story.

Aren't the contests meant first to display the pecking order within a class?

Attached are the official FAI rules governing F3B, F3J and F3K

Frank
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 01:36 PM
Flying IS the hobby
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What are you talking about? What does F3x have to do with the ESL?
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 01:38 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2High
I believe the separation was done to make the Expert scores have statistical meaning and to be able to declare a winner in each category.
Frank
What separation are you talking about? this is not ture, and as I pilot, I am flying ESL contests
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 01:57 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Sorry Jose what I was referring to when I speak of separation is Experts in one group with Sportsmen in another. As far as I understood it, we were trying to follow as closely as possible the rules dictated in F3K by FAI.
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 01:58 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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these are the rules for hand launch as listed on ESL:

Quote:
Posted - 03/10/2005 : 8:30:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GOAL OF THE EASTERN SOARING LEAGUE: Enhance the sport of radio controlled (R/C) thermal soaring through the establishment and maintenance of reasonable standards of contest operations.

Following is a summary of the rules created by the ESL to accomplish the above goal.

GENERAL CONTEST SCHEDULING AND CONDUCT

1. An ESL schedule for the upcoming contest season is compiled at the annual ESL meeting. Additions, deletions, and corrections may be made by contacting the ESL Contest Coordinator.

2. A contest organizer wishing to have an ESL approved contest must have at least one ESL member and must have a representative in attendance at the ESL Meeting or send a written request to an ESL officer to have a date reserved at the ESL meeting.

3. The contest season starts in April and ends the first weekend in November. (Changed 2002) The ESL can extend dates as necessary when scheduling the upcoming season’s events.

4. The contest must have been listed prior to the scheduled meet date in the AMA Competition Calendar, Eastern Soaring Line, or a mailing of the announcement to the ESL membership.

5. The contest must have at least three rounds for points to count toward ESL ranking.

6. The event will be conducted and awards presented in Expert, Sports Flyer and Junior classes.

7. The contest must be an AMA sanctioned event.

8. The Contest Director (CD) must have flown in 3 meets in the previous year or have been a past CD.

Membership
ESL dues will not be collected but the sanction fee will be increased to $2.00 to compensate for the lost dues income. See Sanction Fee heading. All persons that enter an ESL contest will be considered ESL members and will receive the ESL newsletter by email. The current membership list of 2002 will be used as the base line membership and as contests are held new members will be added to the roster. Those persons, who wish to receive an ESL Newsletter and not fly in any ESL contests, need only to submit their email address to the newsletter editor. Those who wish to contribute money to the ESL can do so by sending it to the ESL Sec./Treas. (Added in 2002).

All contestants must have a current AMA license.

.........(omitted due to lack of applicability - TD rules) ..........

HAND LAUNCH DIVISION

Contest location
For the contest to count for ESL HL Division season standings it must appear on the ESL calendar and be within the following states:
MA, CT, RI, NY, NJ, DE, MD, PA, VA, OH, WV, NC.

Sanctioning Fee
For each contestant (per day) the CD will submit $1 to the ESL's treasurer.

Contest Tasks and Rounds
• All contests will be man on man format.
• The host will decide if the experts and sportflyers will fly in the same group or not.
• 2 day single contest formats are allowed.
• If a 2 day single contest format is to be used it must be announced before hand on the ESL web site.
• A two day single contest will count for two single day contests.


Contest Results
The CD will submit the following to the ESL score keeper (within one (1) week of the contest):

• The contestant final placement
• The contestant's name
• The contestant's class
• The normalized score of the contest
• Whether it is a single day or two day contest format


Season standings
The season standings will be based on the competitors top five (5) contest results (the competitors score normalized to the winner of the contest).

At the end of the season the top 5 experts and top 5 sportflyers will receive awards.

The top 3 sportflyers will be advanced to the expert class.


The ESL
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 02:01 PM
Flying IS the hobby
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and this is how scoring is done in the ESL

http://www.flyesl.com/scores/sca.asp

Quote:

ESL Scoring, Classes and Advancement

The ESL scoring, classes and award rules are fairly complicated and I regularly get questions about them. This missive is an attempt at describing them all comprehensively and, hopefully, understandably.

The ESL membership is divided into expert and sportsman classes. New members are free to decide which class they will start in. After that, members must follow the ESL advancement rules which are as follows:
  1. A member competes in one, and only one, class during each contest season. You cannot change classes from contest to contest. The score keeper (me) will keep track of the class of all contestants for each contest and will correct the class if a CD submits scores for a member in the wrong class. If this happens the results reported by the CD may be different from the results posted on the web site.
  2. Any sportsman can decide to advance to expert at the beginning of a contest season. To do so, simply register as an expert at your first contest of the season and continue to register as an expert. I will pick up the change in class and assume that it was a voluntary class change.
  3. The ESL score keeper (me) will keep track of "advancement points" for all members. If a sportsman accumulates 20 or more advancement points over two consecutive years, the sportsman will be advanced to expert class at the beginning of the following season. The advancement points accumulated from all contests will be used. Year to date advancement points are posted on the web site.
  4. Advancement points are given according to the overall finishing position in a contest. The first place winner will be awarded 10 advancement points, second place 9, and so on down to the 10th place, who will be awarded 1 point. For the purposes of advancement points, all contestants are ranked, regardless of class. This ranking isn't normally published. I plan to change the web site contest scores to include both the overall position and the advancement points.
  5. To move from expert to sportsman class requires permission of the ESL board and is normally granted only when the person consistently scores in the bottom 25% of the experts at contests. Any member desiring a move from expert to sportsman class should submit a request to the ESL board at the end of a contest season.
  6. Ranking the contestants is easy for regular contests where everybody competes against everybody else. The contestants are simply ranked by their normalized scores as submitted to the score keeper by the CD.
  7. Man-on-man contests are less simple, because experts only fly against experts and sportsmen only fly against sportsmen. To generate an overall ranking, the score keeper will perform the following calculation: The experts' normalized scores are used directly. The sportsmen’s' normalized scores are adjusted by the ratio of the best sportsman's non-normalized (raw) score to the best expert's non-normalized (raw) score. This normally results is a downward adjustment of the sportsman scores, and is as fair a system as the ESL board has been able to come up with.
  8. For the purposes of the end of season awards, the 6 best normalized scores will be used. For each contest the experts will be normalized to 100 points, with the expert winner receiving 100, and the rest 100 points times the contestants’ final score divided by the expert winner's final score. The sportsmen will also be normalized to 100 points, with the sportsman winner receiving 100 points, and the rest of the sportsmen receiving 100 points times the contestant's final score divided by the sportsman winner's final score.
  9. Improvement compares performance from year to year. It is only calculated for members who have a minimum of 6 contest days in each year. For each year the performance is calculated as the sum of the contestant's best 6 scores as a percentage of the leading pilot's best 6 scores. Improvement is simply the first year's percentage subtracted from the second year's percentage.
That was the formal part. Now for some discussion:

I record and publish advancement point for both experts and sportsmen. I do so because advancement points show how "winning" a contestant is. It is possible to have a very high normalized score and no advancement point, and it is also possible to gain advancement points in spite of having a low normalized score.

Sportsmen are often confused by the fact that advancement points are computed from the overall position and not the finishing position in sportsman class. Since the overall positions aren't announced at the contests, nor published on the web site or the newsletter, this requires some sleuthing.

If you have any questions about your scores, or some other contestant's scores, please contact me as quickly as possible. I do make mistakes every now and then, and I do like to correct them as quickly as possible.

Have a great - fun - contest season.


Anker Berg-Sonne
ESL Score Keeper
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 02:04 PM
Flying IS the hobby
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Joined Feb 2002
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So as long as a contest adheres to both rules then the contest is a valid ESL contest...

In this case, it doesn't matter how you group them, the score keeper takes class grouping into consideration - see #7

Quote:

Man-on-man contests are less simple, because experts only fly against experts and sportsmen only fly against sportsmen. To generate an overall ranking, the score keeper will perform the following calculation: The experts' normalized scores are used directly. The sportsmen’s' normalized scores are adjusted by the ratio of the best sportsman's non-normalized (raw) score to the best expert's non-normalized (raw) score. This normally results is a downward adjustment of the sportsman scores, and is as fair a system as the ESL board has been able to come up with.
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 02:09 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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For one, hand launch doesn't follow rule #3. As stated about and I think you said it too that the top three move up regardless of points. #3 in your post is for TD only.

As for the pecking order, I was looking at the normalized score which is the only thing reported to Anker. If I recall, it was said that a Sportsman had the highest score on sunday, some multiple of 100 points higher than the top Expert. Wouldn't that cause them to get 10 advancement points?
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 02:13 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Quote:
men. To generate an overall ranking, the score keeper will perform the following calculation: The experts' normalized scores are used directly. The sportsmen’s' normalized scores are adjusted by the ratio of the best sportsman's non-normalized (raw) score to the best expert's non-normalized (raw) score. This normally results is a downward adjustment of the sportsman scores, and is as fair a system as the ESL board has been able to come up with.
In this case it will result in a upward adjustment!
If a Sportsman got a higher score than all the experts then dividing it by a smaller number would yield a larger value than all the Experts.

OK I am probably screwing this up

Let's make up numbers:

Expert got 1000
Sportsman got 1200
Sp/ex = 1200/1000 = 1.2 so each Sportsman will be multiplied by 1.2 increasing their position.

If I scored a total of 800 points. My adjested score would be:
800 * 1.2 = 960 to determine where I would stand

Normally a sportsman will score less so
Sp: 1000
Ex: 1500
Sp/ex = 1000/1500 = .667 so if I got a final score of 800 it would be adjusted to 800 * .667 = 533.7
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 02:15 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2High
For one, hand launch doesn't follow rule #3. As stated about and I think you said it too that the top three move up regardless of points. #3 in your post is for TD only.
I agree, these are things that need to be worked out with the ESL at EOS and on the mailing list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2High
As for the pecking order, I was looking at the normalized score which is the only thing reported to Anker. If I recall, it was said that a Sportsman had the highest score on sunday, some multiple of 100 points higher than the top Expert. Wouldn't that cause them to get 10 advancement points?
Yes, that would cause to get advancement points, but he also says "The sportsmen’s' normalized scores are adjusted by the ratio of the best sportsman's non-normalized (raw) score to the best expert's non-normalized (raw) score" but, how will he do this with out the raw scores?

Again, something we have to get clarify from Anker
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 02:16 PM
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So why the huge over reaction then? It looks like Jose agrees with my earlier post in the CRRC thread All I said was that you can't tell Frank how to run his contest and that the ESL doesn't get into rule minutia.

I'm gonna let Frank and Jose have this discussion all to themselves now. Rules discussions like this don't tend to solve anything. What works is for each CD to hold his contest the way he sees fit. If the contestants like it then the format will continue. If they don't the format will not survive. Mark's method of separating experts and sportsmen in different groups worked when there were aproximately equal numbers of each. I wasn't at the contest this year. It sounds like maybe the format doesn't work as well when there aren't very many experts competing.
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 02:17 PM
Flying IS the hobby
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Again, this is something where Anker and others need to be part of...
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