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Old Jul 15, 2008, 11:13 PM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
Israel
Joined Nov 2006
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I actually meant that since all new airfoils use the same methodology and tools in there design and the current trends are of such a big influence on designer that the differences will be very very small in look and behavior. in the end all of today's airfoils create lift and virtually the same drag, put one polar on another and see that the difference is almost non existent and that a mistake of a 0.05 mm on the mold surface will bring the polar of one airfoil to another. Since all mastermolds are hand polished after the CNC process, you only know what went into design and not into the actual plane...
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 05:46 AM
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jojoen's Avatar
Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyOne
..snipp.. This could explain the performance advantage of the Xplorer. Correct me if I am wrong.

George
How did you see any performance advantage?
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz17
With more sponsored pilots posting on the web its important to note that these are opinions not matter of fact. Not every new thing is the latest and greatest -spice or no spice - there is no reason to get caught up in the smallest midget syndrome.


Jetz, no offense intended but your comments on aircraft and cars make me think you are getting the best out of your Toyota hybrid and you canít perceive the nuances between models because you either donít fly enough of them or you donít push the envelope.

The current Xplorer from what I witnessed at the WC appears to be another advancement in design. I paid attention between rounds enough to know that it has all the characteristics of a great F3J ship from a manufacture that is pushing the envelope in many ways.

You are not going to see anything so dramatic regarding improvements as to tilt the entire table but you will see small incremental improvements such as landing stability, squares per weight reduction and better handling.

With the new landing increments I think we will all see a slight shift away from merely light and floaty planes to aircraft that can land on a dime or a 20 CM circle to be exact. The Xplorer like the Perfect exhibit this characteristic as well as great float and lower pilot loads then some other models and as such the results are posted on the WC page.

I spoke at length with the German team who had some Xplorers, a High end, some aspires and other planes as well. It seems obvious to me that this is not just hype itís a good solid design.

Get on the sticks and compare for yourself. Push the envelope and tell me what its like at 140 MPH as compared to the Perfect and these comments will have some meat.

I have two perfects in my shop right now and will likely have an Xplorer for next years team selects. I canít wait to compare them.
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 12:15 PM
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Jojo - I base my opinion on empirical evidence from looking at contest results. I've never seen an Xplorer fly. I just see a lot of new names at the top of the contest results pages. Most of these individuals are flying Xplorers. Some of the names I am more familiar with (i.e David Hobby, Philip Kolb, Daryl Perkins, Cody Remington) while doing very well were not on the podium in Turkey. I'm sure you know all the top pilots and the names I see as new are probably well known to you. I assume all the pilots at the event are world class pilots and could do well with any plane. I'm not suggesting that there are orders of magnitude of difference between the planes. It just seems to me that there is enough of a difference that the top pilots flying the Xplorer consistently have a slight edge over the competition. I know the second place PP had the same score as the Xplorer in the fly-off, but it didn't do as well in the prelims. I see the Xplorer doing very well in Euro Tour events. Maybe my empirically based conclusions aren't valid? It just seems to me the hot setup is the Xplorer. When they are generally available to the soaring community, I think market demand and contest results will support this thinking.

George
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 12:35 PM
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An observation cannot be measured. Honda and Toyota have "incremental" improvements between their car designs in each class. One uses a 1.5 and the other a 1.8 liter motor to get within 2% of the mpg between each other. Tire pressure can make the 2% mpg go up or down for either of them. It can be measured. Wing design tweaked one way for a set of conditions may have a minor advantage in a micro climate for a defined time slot. A program set up of 5 values can and will effect the performance of a camber setting of a wing. A series of human inputs can make a more significant performance increase than any minor advancement in design. With that said there is little reason to chase the fruit of the month or the winner of one event. Individuals can get more out of flying a design that provides solid overall perfomance in place of chasing the next thing in line by just flying it optimally. Save your money go fly what you have to become "incrementally" better.
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 12:45 PM
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webbsolution's Avatar
Joined Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz17
An observation cannot be measured. Honda and Toyota have "incremental" improvements between their car designs in each class. One uses a 1.5 and the other a 1.8 liter motor to get within 2% of the mpg between each other. Tire pressure can make the 2% mpg go up or down for either of them. It can be measured. Wing design tweaked one way for a set of conditions may have a minor advantage in a micro climate for a defined time slot. A program set up of 5 values can and will effect the performance of a camber setting of a wing. A series of human inputs can make a more significant performance increase than any minor advancement in design. With that said there is little reason to chase the fruit of the month or the winner of one event. Individuals can get more out of flying a design that provides solid overall perfomance in place of chasing the next thing in line by just flying it optimally. Save your money go fly what you have to become "incrementally" better.

You can bet that everyone will be looking to get better through hard work and an intimate understanding of thier planes. However, if you think that the world is going to pass off the latest designs as a fad or flavor of the month I would think again. Then again maybe you have. I would expect that you are going to show up at your national team selects with a Stratos because all this "hype" really has no meat.

Good luck with that
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 01:36 PM
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Tuomo's Avatar
Jyvaskyla, Finland
Joined Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyOne
Jojo - I base my opinion on empirical evidence from looking at contest results. I've never seen an Xplorer fly. I just see a lot of new names at the top of the contest results pages. Most of these individuals are flying Xplorers. Some of the names I am more familiar with (i.e David Hobby, Philip Kolb, Daryl Perkins, Cody Remington) while doing very well were not on the podium in Turkey. I'm sure you know all the top pilots and the names I see as new are probably well known to you. I assume all the pilots at the event are world class pilots and could do well with any plane. I'm not suggesting that there are orders of magnitude of difference between the planes. It just seems to me that there is enough of a difference that the top pilots flying the Xplorer consistently have a slight edge over the competition. I know the second place PP had the same score as the Xplorer in the fly-off, but it didn't do as well in the prelims. I see the Xplorer doing very well in Euro Tour events. Maybe my empirically based conclusions aren't valid? It just seems to me the hot setup is the Xplorer. When they are generally available to the soaring community, I think market demand and contest results will support this thinking.
To me Explorer looked like just another good F3J plane. There are 5-6 planes available that are capable of winning WC. Pilot is the critical factor.
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuomo
To me Explorer looked like just another good F3J plane. There are 5-6 planes available that are capable of winning WC. Pilot is the critical factor.

It's far less critical with me. If I fly the best one I am almost certaily not going to place....yet.

Having said this I am going to go shoot landings with my repaired shadow and one of the actual contest lines from Turkey...

All I am issing is someone yelling at me from the side " Attention!!"

Seriously though I really would like to see how the new Xplorer lands..... soon maybe soon.

DW
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Last edited by webbsolution; Jul 16, 2008 at 03:09 PM.
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 05:54 AM
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Estonia,Tartu
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What are the wing hinges made of ? Silicone or some fabric .?
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 09:27 AM
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Does it matter what the hinges are? I'll bet its "incrementally" better for those lazer landing points.
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 09:36 AM
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webbsolution's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charged
What are the wing hinges made of ? Silicone or some fabric .?

The hinges are integrated fabric like all the Nan models.
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
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Seems much stiffer than silicone .
Doesnt stretch from the hinge line like the silicone ones .Dont know what the fabric exactly is .?
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 12:04 PM
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webbsolution's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charged
Seems much stiffer than silicone .
Doesnt stretch from the hinge line like the silicone ones .Dont know what the fabric exactly is .?
I would imagine its integrated light glass but I don't have the model in front of me. I don't think they would have made a major departure regarding hinges between the xpro and Xplorer.

I tore the hinge on my Shadow at the world cup when it went in from about 700 feet and it appears to be light glass with some kind of coating on it.

DW
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 12:14 PM
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jojoen's Avatar
Norway
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webbsolution
I would imagine its integrated light glass but I don't have the model in front of me. I don't think they would have made a major departure regarding hinges between the xpro and Xplorer.

I tore the hinge on my Shadow at the world cup when it went in from about 700 feet and it appears to be light glass with some kind of coating on it.

DW
Abreissgewebe (dont remember the english word for it right now) or kevlar.
Abreissgewebe is a fabric that does not work so well with epoxy so it can be broken free without it breaks itself. It comes in rolls or larger pieces and is also used for insulation in high power electric stations (generators especially)
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 12:20 PM
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webbsolution's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojoen
Abreissgewebe (dont remember the english word for it right now) or kevlar.
Abreissgewebe is a fabric that does not work so well with epoxy so it can be broken free without it breaks itself. It comes in rolls or larger pieces and is also used for insulation in high power electric stations (generators especially)

JoJo you are a wealth of information. Thank you for correcting me.
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