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Old Jul 14, 2008, 06:21 PM
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R.M. Gellart's Avatar
Joined Nov 2005
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V's were good enough for Beech, and if you fly F3B, there are not really any competitive designs made that have straight tails.

I have more time in V-tail Bonanzas than any other ship, they flew just fine.

Marc
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 07:38 PM
The Lone Blue Plaid Flyer
Bob Cook's Avatar
Seattle
Joined Jan 2003
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HI Curt,

I started this thread, and now it's got a life of it's own and I have NEVER laughed so hard in all my life. The Kilts are just banned on windy days at the field.
Your deputy Chairman of S.A.V.E. ??? !!!!!

Wayne,

The patch and logo you made up is just fine. I think we can just go with that for now.

Ryan,

Your going to make a Riser 112 !!! I am very impressed and pleased. Maybe you should re-think the V tail though. You'll still be in the BPS, just not able to join the No V Tails Group.

Bob in Seattle
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 07:43 PM
The Lone Blue Plaid Flyer
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Seattle
Joined Jan 2003
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Hi Marc,

I'm sure Bonanzas fly just fine too. Remember, this is the thread for "irrational" dislike of V tails. Some people don't like Brussel Sprouts, we just happen not to like V Tails for what ever reason.

Bob in Seattle
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 08:21 PM
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Don Stackhouse's Avatar
United States, OH, Bradford
Joined Jun 2005
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Ryan, maybe if you could e-mail me detailed dimensions on the existing conventional tail, I might be able to calculate a properly equivalent V-tail for your Riser 112.

Don
Chief Subversive, BPSNVTD
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 08:45 PM
Flyin' Ryan
USA, MO, Lee's Summit
Joined Sep 2001
980 Posts
Don, I wish I could, but I haven't even bought the kits(s) yet. I am still building the Chrysalis, and don't want to get too many projects started. Bob and Nick re worked the wings and horz stab, and made it look really nice. A V- tail would make the 80's classic a real modern looking plane, especially with the nice wing tips Bob has built. I was thinking of adding the total area of the horz and vert fins and /2. Is that the "projected area" you referred to in the other thread? Maybe Nick or Bob could send you the drawings. I think the Riser 112 could be the next group build.

Ryan
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 08:46 PM
The Lone Blue Plaid Flyer
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OH NO...............the Mole has surfaced !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob in Seattle
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rycomm
...I was thinking of adding the total area of the horz and vert fins and /2. Is that the "projected area" you referred to in the other thread?
No, the projected area method is where you make it the same size in the top view as the horizontal tail, and the same size in the side view (counting the two halves) as the vertical tail of the supposedly equivalent conventional tail.

The result of that has quite a bit less total area than the supposedly equivalent conventional or T-tail. It can make the same pitch force as its conventional "equivalent", or the same yaw force, but NOT both at the same time. For things like spin recovery, as well as for basic stabilizing effect, that's a problem.

The truly equivalent V-tail has the same TOTAL area.

Quote:
Maybe Nick or Bob could send you the drawings. I think the Riser 112 could be the next group build.

Ryan
I'm hoping that if I can squeeze in enough design and prototyping time in between all these forum questions, it might be something else...
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 08:58 PM
The Lone Blue Plaid Flyer
Bob Cook's Avatar
Seattle
Joined Jan 2003
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HI Ryan,

I can give you the over all dimentions of the tips. Nick and I just sorta free handed it, useing the TLAR method. It's baiscly a mix of an AVA tip and a Tango tip put together. It's 6" wide at the trailing edge and the cord is what ever the last rib is on the Riser wing. The angle of the rib is about 30 degrees. Here is the photo for you.

Bob in Seattle
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 09:03 PM
I eat only vegetarian beef
Skycruiser's Avatar
Fairlie, New Zealand
Joined Nov 2006
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Ryan, i don't think Bob has much in the way of drawings, it was done on the TLAR method. There's a possibility that his vert stab area my be a little bigger than the stretched tips require, and will need trimming. He's due to test fly this weekend. Before jumping in and going V tail, suggest we see how it flies. Either that or engineer in some way of changing the V angle. I've done that before by joining the two halves with 1/4 scale hinges, and using two screws through the hinge axis to attach them to a V shaped saddle. That way V angle could be changed for trimming flights with a couple of packer strips. The added advantage is that the V tail can then be taken off and stored flat if need be.

Question: when does a Riser cease to be a Riser? If span is changed, planform is changed, tail type is changed, and a motor is added, is it still a riser?

How about pod and boom using a cf golf wood shaft? Pretty sure they're all spiral wound, and they're actually easier to attach a v tail to IMO. I picked up 6 for $5 from my local pro shop.

Nick
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 09:03 PM
Flyin' Ryan
USA, MO, Lee's Summit
Joined Sep 2001
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Don, I'll take a Chysalis 120 or whatever you've got going on. But, if I need an in between project, the Riser 112 will do just fine. Of course, designing Riser 112 Vtails isn't going to help your cause any.

Bob, Thanks again.

I think I'm going to work on the Chrys, if I can get the kids to bed at a reasonable time.

Ryan
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 09:05 PM
I eat only vegetarian beef
Skycruiser's Avatar
Fairlie, New Zealand
Joined Nov 2006
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If you do it, do a scarfe joint rather than the mortice one Bob did. It'll be stronger and easier.
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 10:31 PM
Making wood fly since 2007
Windependence's Avatar
USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
2,505 Posts
No v-Tail squadron, we need to nip this mole in the bud. We must discredit him in some way so he will not persuade those doubting the cause. The mole reminds me of that arcade game where the rodent keeps popping his head up out of different holes and you keep smacking him back down with a mallot. We need a bigger mallot. Didn't someone in the Chrysalis build say you could use the Chrysalis fuselage as a bat?

Bob get that Chrysalis fuselage built, we need it!!!

PS

Remember Don this is all in good fun.

Wayne
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 10:49 PM
Making wood fly since 2007
Windependence's Avatar
USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Stackhouse
No, the projected area method is where you make it the same size in the top view as the horizontal tail, and the same size in the side view (counting the two halves) as the vertical tail of the supposedly equivalent conventional tail.

The result of that has quite a bit less total area than the supposedly equivalent conventional or T-tail. It can make the same pitch force as its conventional "equivalent", or the same yaw force, but NOT both at the same time. For things like spin recovery, as well as for basic stabilizing effect, that's a problem.

The truly equivalent V-tail has the same TOTAL area.



I'm hoping that if I can squeeze in enough design and prototyping time in between all these forum questions, it might be something else...
Now as I recall the No v-Tail oath sais that I will not fly v-tails but it sais nothing about helping others, misguided as they might be, fly them. That being said I submit this for rycomm's and Don's review. I found this conversion formula a little while back. Thought you might like it.
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 11:21 PM
To many projects
66tbird's Avatar
USA, AZ, Litchfield Park
Joined Aug 2004
1,055 Posts
I do solemnly swear no V or y tails in my life!

Reminds me of my Grandma swearing off getting a microwave. Made about as much sense also.
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Old Jul 14, 2008, 11:38 PM
sKrude up, Rejected!
DogFly.'s Avatar
United States, CA, Santa Barbara
Joined Jun 2008
3,186 Posts
...
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