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Old Feb 02, 2003, 09:17 AM
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speedster's Avatar
San Diego, California, United States
Joined Jan 2001
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Speed 400 6volts only!

Quote:
Originally posted by davidfee
As far as I'm concerned, the rule has always been "Any S400 motor... you know what we mean." As for the cell count, we're still at 7.

So we have:

Motor: Any S400 motor (2.3mm shaft, blah blah blah...)
Battery: 7 cells max, any cell type.
Airplane: Any model* (no special restrictions).
Task: 10 laps around the AMA 1/2A course.

*All models should have a switch installed in order to qualify for race-readiness. (This is because we carry all models out to the course at once and models must sit ready to fly while other heats are flown.)

As far as changing rules and/or categories for the new cells... I think it may just be a matter of time before the new cells take over and it becomes a non-issue. I'm willing to fly all cell types together for now... this is all for fun, after all.

see you at the races...
David
6VOLTS ONLY!
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Old Feb 02, 2003, 12:21 PM
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davidfee's Avatar
San Diego, CA, USA
Joined Mar 2001
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Re: Speed 400 6volts only!

Quote:
6VOLTS ONLY!
Doug, are you volunteering to personally inspect everyone's motors and dyno them to make sure they haven't put a 4.8V armature in a 6V can? Also, what about my MFA Rocket 400? It's something like a 5V. And how about the Robbe 6V 400? The Robbe has a higher KV than the Graupner. Who knows about the DMA Zoom motors, the Zagi motors, and all the other motors out there...

Even if you specify "6V Graupner S400, part number xxxxx," there is a lot of variation in quality. Someone will buy 50 motors and pick the best one.

Maybe we should set up an online poll to see what people think?

-David
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Old Feb 02, 2003, 12:55 PM
Electron Abuser
Allen, Texas (North Dallas)
Joined Oct 2002
335 Posts
This is completely un-inforceable without making the whole process unbearable. The rules you stated are the AMA rules we flew at last years nats, and for this year as well. My main issue would be policing the use of 7 cells in the packs. We didn't even do that at the nats, but is really a good idea. This is the real killer here. You cant beat cell count. However, most of this racing is so informal at this time.
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Old Feb 02, 2003, 04:42 PM
301MPH!
speedster's Avatar
San Diego, California, United States
Joined Jan 2001
655 Posts
Re: Re: Speed 400 6volts only!

When I first started pylon I was told speed 400 6 volts and thats what we have used in the past. If you want to cheat and use a 4.8 volt then so be. After all it is just for fun! It really comes down to flying anyway! Maybe when the heats are closer we will check out your plane! David FEE I got $20.00 on my Scat next race. Are you in?

Doug



Quote:
Originally posted by davidfee
Doug, are you volunteering to personally inspect everyone's motors and dyno them to make sure they haven't put a 4.8V armature in a 6V can? Also, what about my MFA Rocket 400? It's something like a 5V. And how about the Robbe 6V 400? The Robbe has a higher KV than the Graupner. Who knows about the DMA Zoom motors, the Zagi motors, and all the other motors out there...

Even if you specify "6V Graupner S400, part number xxxxx," there is a lot of variation in quality. Someone will buy 50 motors and pick the best one.

Maybe we should set up an online poll to see what people think?

-David
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Old Feb 02, 2003, 08:06 PM
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San Diego, CA, USA
Joined Mar 2001
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Re: Re: Re: Speed 400 6volts only!

Quote:
When I first started pylon I was told speed 400 6 volts and thats what we have used in the past.
6V motors became standard because the 4.8V motors burn up too fast for most people to consider the event to still be "economy." I never saw 6V in the rules anywhere, except for some of the stock classes (usually with a 150sqin min area). I don't really care because I use a regular 6V motor in my SkaT. I was just trying to keep things as simple as possible. Besides, several people are working on non-6V setups now that we have new props and cells available. I hate to stifle development.

Anyway, I'm satisfied with saying that the motor can only be a 6V... but we'll have to work on the honor system, as we do with the batteries.

have fun,
David
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Old Feb 02, 2003, 08:47 PM
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United States, CA, Lake Forest
Joined Feb 1999
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Didn't mean to open up a can of worms!

Here is a solution to the inspection problem. Do what the Swiss did (sort of) in the WC. The person who wins the heat, ask him/her to show the CD their battery (and possibly their motor). As far as motors go, I don't care what you guys require. I can work with 4.8V's and keep them alive for many flights, or I can deal with 6.0V's. We usually match up pilots for their skills anyways. Name a few very available manufacturers: Graupner, Robbe, Permax(multiplex) and be done with it. Basically you can go to any LHS and walk out with an accepted 6.0V. If you go through 50 motors to find a good one, you deserve to win but also deserve a smack upside the head for wasting $500 on a "fun" contest. Say "No modifying" (ie: taking it apart to stuff a new armature in) except for timing and cleaning the comm. Keep the original sticker on the motor.
If you get caught cheating, you have to wear an "I love Zagis" T-shirt for the rest of the day. When we have beautiful glass etched trophies, bikini girls handing them out, and champagne corks popping all around, we can break out the dyno.
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Old Feb 03, 2003, 07:09 PM
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San Diego, CA, USA
Joined Nov 2001
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When we have beautiful glass etched trophies, bikini girls handing them out, and champagne corks poppin, I will be putting a brushless motor inside a 6 volt speed 400 can.


Chuck
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Old Feb 03, 2003, 09:10 PM
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San Diego, CA, USA
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Now we're talking!!
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Old Feb 03, 2003, 11:27 PM
It's all fun till Crunch!
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InSane Diego
Joined Jan 2002
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This is great!

I want Doug to check all the motors and batts and dyno them too.

And like Chuck when you have Chanpange and Hooters Girls with Artist Designed Trophies, I too will find a way to get a Brushless in a S400 can! And 2600 cells in the Stinger body!

Oh Well, let's just go out & race for the heck of it, OK?

Capt. Munch
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 06:23 AM
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United States, MI, Commerce Charter Township
Joined Dec 2000
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I've been trying to stay out of this thread because it's not my deal, but as the guy that restarted the 4.8V thing I've got this to say:


Use of a 4.8V motor is NOT cheating. If you knew about the history of 400 pylon, you'd know that's what the event started with. The standard race setup was a 4.8V motor running 5 sub-c cells. It worked. Then people went to 7 cells when batteries got smaller and lighter and forgot all about the 4.8V motor because it smoked itself on 7 cells.

Last year I was looking for a different way be competitive in a beginner's pylon event (the 400 NATs) that was being dominated by an expert-I ended up with the 4.8V setup on 6 cells. A true competitor doesn't look at what the rules say, he/she looks at what they DON'T say. Nowhere did the rules stipulate any particular wind or dictate packs with strictly 7 cells.

I understand that you guys are just club racing, but if you show up at the field and another racer has something different that happens to be faster it's probably not because he cheated, it's because he wanted to win more than you did. The guy that works the hardest will always be faster. He played on the bench, he did what he had to to get old 500AR's, he practiced etc., and that's not wrong.

Given that you guys fly small airplanes like the Stinger and Hummer, I would think the 4.8V/5C motor would a shoe-in for your racers. Taking an ounce and a half out of a Stinger would make it turn a lot better and probably still be very fast.

Dave

P.S. How many of you are running the 4.8V setup now?
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 07:14 AM
Electric Airplane Crazy!
Joined Feb 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Campbell
..... Nowhere did the rules stipulate any particular wind or dictate packs with strictly 7 cells......

Dave

P.S. How many of you are running the 4.8V setup now?
Dave, down here we have AMA rules that say any motor(s) and seven cells.

One thing that I see that is going to be trouble here at the Nats is the limiting to Nicd cells. We probably better get the AMA working on that pronto! HA ROFLOL

Heres a snapshot from the AMA rulebook. Of course the club racing can be whatever you'd like, I just wanted to bring up what it says in this rulebook.
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 07:41 AM
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United States, MI, Commerce Charter Township
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The E-nats are run by the rules on the NEAC website. The wording there is that 400 pylon "limited to 7 cells". I read that as "can't use more than". Aparently noone else there had a problem with it, including the president of the NEAC. Two motors are legal too, the rules don't say anything about them either. Again, it's what the rules don't say that separates the sport flier from the racer.

IMHO, it would be Stooopid to the Extreme not to allow changes from the current setup of 6V and 7 cells as a standard practice. The real beauty of the 4.8V/6C is that anyone can play fairly-which is not the case for pilots that don't have good 500AR packs.

I'll probably be back up to 7 cells this year, and I guarantee you guys-it won't be slower than what I've got now. I'm not saying this to be cocky or start problems, just that it's not fair for one guy to expect another to "do what everyone else does" just so that he is 'equally disadvantaged'.

According to Ralph Weaver at last year's NATs, Nickel Metal Hydride cells WOULD be legal at this coming NATs. This is important because it's key in getting the 4.8V motor to run long enough if you don't fly at record pace.

Dave
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 07:50 AM
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Wull see, there ya go! It says a maximum of 7 cells-so 5 or 6 cells is Legal!

If your club has different rules, then it's not 400 pylon-Club400SD maybe?

You'd have to call it something else-If I play tennis and dictate a "one arm only" rule, I can't call it tennis anymore. At that point we're talking about DaveBall.

Dave
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 10:02 AM
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United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Campbell
Use of a 4.8V motor is NOT cheating. If you knew about the history of 400 pylon, you'd know that's what the event started with. The standard race setup was a 4.8V motor running 5 sub-c cells. It worked. Then people went to 7 cells when batteries got smaller and lighter and forgot all about the 4.8V motor because it smoked itself on 7 cells.
Dave, What planet was this setup used--5 sub C cells on a 4.8 volt s400 motor? I raced electrics in the early 80s and we were using "05" can motors on 8 1/2 sub C 550 mah GE cells. Later I tried, with good results the Sagami motor on 6 sub C cells.

On the S400 side we always used the 2/3A sized cells--and yes it was 7 cells. A few used the Rocket motors and sometimes the 4.8 volt S400 motors but they tended to get cooked of drew too much power to finish the race. With the KAN950s those motor now have enough power to run the whole race--if they last.

Steve
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 11:26 AM
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United States, CA, Lake Forest
Joined Feb 1999
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I'm starting to see the fun-level of "Fun" S400 racing go downhill again...
I'm still using my 4.8V from the last race. You have to maintain the comm and keep the bearings well lubed, BUT having said that, I'll elect to go to a 6.0v for the San Diego S400. It's plenty fast with one and I can use a slightly bigger prop. It's nice just to be able to go around pylons. I don't think we are trying to turn this into mini F5D. See ya at the race!
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Last edited by Troy; Feb 06, 2003 at 11:44 AM.
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