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Old Jun 20, 2008, 02:03 AM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
Build Log
CSRC Quattro-E Build n Fly

Last summer I decided I wanted to set up a nice electric trainer I could buddy box with my kids and use at the upcoming Northwest Electric Fun Fly-In(NEFI). The local HobbyTown USA I manage sets up a booth for the two day event. I knew that Common Sense RC was coming out with a 51" wingspan trainer capable of some aerobatics. Joe at CSRC always shoots me the straight info and has never steered me wrong. So when the Quattro-E showed up in the shop I was sold.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Aircraft Length:40" / 1016mm
Wing Span:51" / 1295mm
Wing Area:442.5 sq in
Flying Weight:38.5oz / 1091g


There is no real need to do a complete build thread on this ARF, as it is pretty straight forward basic modeling skills. I have pics to post though. Common Sense did a great job of boxing and prepping the parts. First thing they put a recommendation for motor, ESC and battery on the box, right in your face, so the new guy knows what he needs. Picking up the fuse I notice how light it is for being 40" long. Lots of thin plywood huge cut outs and lightening holes. Inside there is a long generous battery tray. The motor mount is a nice piece of plywood thats been fiber-glassed on both sides and glued in for you already at the proper thrust angle. The steering block on the underside is some more laser cut plywood that interlocks into the firewall. The servo tray is a drop in fit for HS-81's or similar. Pushrod tubes are already installed and they include a cross brace predrilled that holds the ends of the tubes near the servos. I appreciated this little feature of leaving that step for me to do, too often I am bending wire near the servo to meet up where the tubes exit the servo tray. I can use any servo stack height I want. The wings are straight and light, precut for the single servo in the middle. Included was a nicely made long wing-spar made out of quality plywood and fiber glassed already for you. Tail feathers are straight forward, wire landing gear, elements of a typical gas trainer without the weight.

The listed AUW is 38.5 oz. and looking at the wings semi-symmetrical airfoil I want to build it lighter and get the trainer characteristics and light wing loading out of it. The say this is a .25 size trainer you fly on .10 size power. I looked up the stock specs to find a power system that I might already have and that is lighter. CSRC recommends E10-12 CSRC Brushless Motor (.10 size), Z-45 CSRC 45 Amp ESC, 11x8.5E APC Propeller and a 7.4v 3850mAh 8C CSRC LiPo Battery Pack. This setup gives between 250 and 300 watts. I already had a CSRC E8-S-10 motor, it is a 1000kv 480 size motor that I knew I could get 230 watts out of it safely from testing it before on a plane. If I could use this motor with a 3cell 15c 2100 I would have a little less power with a little more than 2 ounces dropped in wing loading from motor and battery. After talking to Joe again at CSRC he told me this plane had been set up with a E5-L-13 which is a 1300kv 450 size motor powered by a 3 cell 15c 2100. A smaller motor that due to it's kv puts out more than the 480 size I am using. I was sort of amazed looking at this big plane and these little motors, I think I have been stuck in the 3D 300watts per pound world for too long. The last few planes I have built or Arf'ed I have went with the two cell higher Kv motor idea to swing the same prop, get the same power and lighten the aircraft. It has worked well and I decided here I was going to give it a college try at flying this plane with some authority on a 480 size motor and 3cell 2100's. I have lots of those batteries so I can keep new pilots in the air all weekend at NEFI.

The build was straight forward, the manual is good with only one thing that made me stumble. I do things out of order sometimes so the servos went in the fuselage right away. I chose some Futaba 3102 metal gear servos, I had them around out of a stripped Ultrastick. I mounted the motor and since I was using a smaller motor i needed to drill some new holes in the mount. I used the X mount I had in my parts bin as template. I ended up using the X mount on the outside of the motor mount so the mounting bolts didn't distort the wood. I had a CSRC 45 amp Opto ESC from another plane I set under the the battery tray. Also from the other plane I installed the CSRC XBEC, It is only needed here because I am using a ESC without a bec. The Opto 45 has the ability to use more than 3 cells where you can't use a on board bec. Otherwise a BEC equipped 25 amp ESC would do fine here. I like the idea of using the bigger ESC here though because at some point I will be putting in a bigger motor and It will only require swapping the motor out. I do like the safety of plugging in my radio and servos before I plug in the ESC and arm it, the piggy back Deans connector makes it nice for this. Common Sense make a nice little programming card for their ESC's, setting the cell count, start, cutoff type, timing, rotation, and brake are quick with setting some jumpers with the card plugged in to ESC and a battery. You hear a beep from the motor and it is all done. I mounted the receiver on the aft end of the battery tray and most of my electronics were laid out. I went about gluing the tail feathers on and being a builder since a kid I still like using old products like Ambroid glue. The smell takes me back to days as a kid building comet kits in the basement. It always holds well and I figure I can wait for it to cure I am not going to be flying it at 2 am. The covering on the bottom of the vertical stab and the middle of the horizontal stab were already removed for me. I needed to remove the covering from the fuselage to slide the horizontal stab in. I ran strips of masking tape along the slots and on both surfaces, top and bottom of the horizontal stab. This is useful even if you are using epoxy or other wood glues, once you slide the part in you can remove the masking tape taking away with it any glue that oozed out, making a nice clean joint. I hit the pre-installed CA hinges on both surfaces with some thin CA and set them before I coated them with the Ambroid to glue into the fuselage. I let them sit for a bit then One thing I do need to say is the covering on the whole plane out of the box was nice and tight, I still haven't touched this plane with any heat yet. I used more masking tape to hold the stabs in place for square.

I set aside the fuse to dry and grabbed the two wing panels, I love flaperons and I wanted to widen the servo bay in the wing to accommodate two servos side by side. I know it is a weight penalty but dropping the flaps for that increased slow flight lift might be helpful with new pilots. Little measuring, little cutting and some scrap plywood and I had room for two Futaba 3102's in the wing. The wing went together nice and straight and the stiff, a well made wing spar was appreciated. A few notes on the ailerons, on the underside of the wing where the threaded end of the torque rod exits the wing there is limited travel for the rod. Simply cutting the slot an 1/8" longer towards the front will increase the travel you can get out of the ailerons. I noticed a bit of play in the other end of the rod before the bend going into the aileron itself. I cut two 1 1/2" lengths of 3/32" basswood and pushed them into the slot along the wire. It took care of the play and rounded out a bit to act as a hardwood bearing for the wire. I scuffed up the end and glued on the ailerons with thick CA and hit the hinges with thin. Because I wasn't using the supplied servo tray for the single servo in the wing I added some plywood reinforcements and strips to screw the servos into. The leading edge of the wing pins into the the fuselage with a thick plywood tab.

The aileron linkage was quick and easy with the supplied servo connectors and z bend pushrods. I grabbed the fuselage and glued in the CF rods that the wing rubber bands hook to. One thing here after hooking the wing on these could easily be 1/4" longer, they are kind of on the short side when you have 4 rubber bands on there. But on the flip side, with 10cents worth of plywood , a 4-40 blind nut and bolt this could easily be converted to a bolt on wing. There is a rectangular piece of covered ply that is included in the kit that is meant to be glued down on the center of the wing on the trailing edge to help from the rubber bands cutting into the balsa, the manual does not mention this, I would be nice if it was about 2" longer to be where the rubber bands actually ride on the wing. I ran the pushrods for the tail surfaces through the tubes and attached the control horns. I glued in the pushrod tube support brace and tightened down the horns. Again all straight forward and like most trainer assemblies. One thing I got tripped up on was the nose gear diagram in the manual, if it is set up like it is pictured your rudder will steer opposite of your nose gear. You have to pull out collar from the neat plywood nose-gear control horn included in the kit and flip it over so you can access the set screw. The pushrod wire for the nose needs to go to the other side of the fire wall. I was fairly happy with this set up. I know the nose gear needs very little throw, but really needing a longer control arm on the nose gear led me to break the plywood one trying to get the bend in the wire right so it didn't bind. I replaced the horn with a standard Dubro one that I had to cut down a bit to make it fit but still was able to get the wire in to a hole further out than original. After pulling the nose gear in and out a few times I noticed a bit of play so the nose wobbled a bit. I took some more thin plywood and cut it down drilling slightly smaller holes than the nose gear wire diameter, I took these two tabs I made and glued them to the nose gear blocks, basically doubling them. I wicked CA into the holes hopefully hardening them to keep the gear wire running smooth and not to eventually hog out the holes making it sloppy again. I also swapped out the the 1 1/4" wheels for some big 3" Dubro Foamies. Look at the photos and you will see what I fly off of. The battery door is screwed on and I chose to use a magnet instead. I assembled everything and it was all good improvements that only took a few minutes. I am still amazed at this light airframe for under a 100 bucks. I have never met an ARF that didn't need a little of this and that.

I fired up the Futaba 9C and dialed in the Quattro-E, I put one of my full size 8 channel PCM receivers in the plane, I know there are lighter receivers but I am trying to utilize what I have around and this is a no-brainer as far as range and reliability. I set up some rates, some expo and my flap mixes. My BEC is putting out 6 volts at a constant 5 amps so my servos have around 60 oz. of torque. I grab a few props and a CSRC 3 cell 2100's. With a 10x5E APC prop I hit 14 amps with 225 watts, I tried a 10x7E of the same flavor and hit 245 watts at 17 amps. I was stoked I am below the motor amp limit and looking at a battery I should get at least 10 minutes of flight from. My only scale has a limit of 17 ounces for weighing items, so all I could do was weigh the built and ready in parts and add it up. I ended up with 36 oz.

I got out to fly and after warming up with some other planes I Put a Battery in the Quattro and steered it around in the thick grass and lined it up. I was pleased with the amount of the steering it had and was glad i put the bigger wheels on there. The stock wheels are best for paved or smooth dirt runways, the L bend on the gear is too low and will grab the grass. It is rare I see a smooth runway and I was enjoying the fact that having a larger plane gave me new taxiing abiliities. I gave it about 3/4 throttle and as I got it moving forward and and pulled back on the stick off she went. Immediately needed to go below 1/2 throttle to keep it in check. I was flying in about a 15mph wind but it wasn't apparent flying the Quattro. I flew some laps, rolled, looped and flew inverted. Not a click of trim so far, everything was straight. I hit some switches and tried my air brake and flaps, slowed down really nice and when you drop the flaps you can lumber the thing around deliberately nice and slow. If I hit beyond 3/4 throttle it shot straight up and any stick beyond that just made it climb faster. I had a blast flying it even got it to do some rudder rolls and flat spins. It will knife edge with full throttle and had no weird stall characteristics. I rarely fly my lipo powered stuff to the cut off I think about landing when I can see a change in the power at the sticks. I flew a long time and kept wondering when I would see the power drop. I took it up high and flew it fast, I did a few dead stick practices and it was perfect even with out flaps on to give extra lift. I finally saw the angle of climb was diminishing so I brought it around for an approach. I had it near the ground and it wasn't slowing down and if I set it down it would eventually rolled into the cement barrier separating the field from the road. I pulled up and hit the throttle needing to clear the power lines that would be in my way soon. I was amazed and the responsive control I got, I had one wing tip a foot from the ground as I was pulling up and turning away from the power lines. I pulled it around and made my approach farther out and hitting my air brake to set it down. I got 17 minutes of flight and was a few minutes before a voltage cutoff in the ESC would kick in. This plane would be ballistic with the stock setup, it doesn't want to get out of the air with the setup I used. I could easily go to a 10x5E prop and gain a few more minutes of flight without much lost in power.
This plane flies like a trainer with throttle control and limited surface movement but if you open it up it is a blast to throw around. For someone on a budget this is a perfect plane needing only 3 servos, a 450 or 480 motor, 3cell 2100 and a 25amp ESC to fly it. I don't want to discount CSRC for the motor they say to use, I would need a bigger area and a few muscle relaxers to handle more power with this plane. An excellent airframe especially you were planning on owning one plane, a plane that goes with you as you go from new pilot to hotdog ace. But we all know how those good intention of "owning one plane" go. I went for the light build, or as light as I could, using Common Sense's recommended power package may make it better trainer ship. I could see that even with the increased power the little more weight would make it handle the wind better like a small nitro trainer. This plane reminds me of my Eaglet I built when I was 15. It would definitely get down on the ground sooner when you wanted with a little more weight. Other big planes have intimidated me trying to fly them at a soccer field, seems I am always turning around. The Quattro is going to be a plane I keep around as a regular to take with me. Thumbs up to CSRC for making their entry into airframes a formidable contender in a sea of ARF's.


I will have this plane hooked up to a buddy box for anyone who wants to fly it at the Northeast Electric Electric Fly-In here in Spokane, August 17th and 18th.
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Last edited by Ragemaster; Jun 20, 2008 at 03:09 AM. Reason: Type of post
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Old Jun 20, 2008, 02:06 AM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
Here are a few pics from last Saturday
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Old Jun 20, 2008, 02:42 AM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
The guys at Common Sense gave me a great idea they had for wiring up a BEC in a plane awhile back.

Take two Deans, one male and one female
Solder them back to back with the power in leads from the BEC.
This way you can plug in your servos and not have the ESC powered up at all.
The battery's female plugs into the male side of the BEC plug, and when you are ready you plug the male plug from the ESC into the other side.
Great for setting up or adjusting the plane.
After I soldered this up I was loooking for a way to Shrink wrap it or insulate it properly, wanting something inbetween the posts on the deans plugs I put clear packing tape down and layed the plug on its side on it and took 5 minute epoxy and dripped it in between the posts then pulled the tape around it making it squeeze into the gaps, 10 minutes later I pulled the tape off and had a clear epoxy insulator on my plug.
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Last edited by Ragemaster; Jun 20, 2008 at 02:47 AM. Reason: added more
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Old Jun 20, 2008, 02:54 AM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
Why I need 3" wheels
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Old Jun 21, 2008, 03:30 PM
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mikekomm's Avatar
Los Angeles
Joined Aug 2002
576 Posts
We will be adding Instruction Manual addendums to our website very soon that will address any ambiguous or missing steps involved in the construction of this plane and all the others.

Mike
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Old Jun 23, 2008, 03:31 PM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
Thanks Mike!
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Old Jul 15, 2008, 06:13 PM
CSRC Service and Support
Joe_Curd's Avatar
Erlanger, KY
Joined Nov 2006
131 Posts
Got any more flights in on this bird Dave?
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Old Jul 16, 2008, 03:26 AM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
I have been flying the crap out of it. I moved the pushrods on the control horns, getting very big throws now. I need to mix the elevator to clean up snaps now. I moved the flaps to full, and now it will take off in 10', slows nice too. I have the wing sitting here looking for my roll of black ultracote to put some stripes on the bottom, having a hard time seeing it. I also went from a 10x7 to a 11x6 and I am putting on a 12x5 for the next flight.
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Old Jul 28, 2008, 06:42 PM
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Joined Jul 2008
27 Posts
Just to let you guys know, we're now offering power system packages along with the planes at a great discount. The Quattro has three different packages for different levels of experience. The discount ends August 31, so check them out while they last.

Basic Trainer
Extended Flight
High Altitude/High Power

Stephen Lopez
www.CommonSenseRC.com
The "Go To" Guys in Electric Power
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Last edited by Stephen.Lopez; Jul 29, 2008 at 12:49 PM.
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Old Aug 06, 2008, 06:42 PM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen.Lopez
Just to let you guys know, we're now offering power system packages along with the planes at a great discount. The Quattro has three different packages for different levels of experience. The discount ends August 31, so check them out while they last.

Basic Trainer
Extended Flight
High Altitude/High Power

Stephen Lopez
www.CommonSenseRC.com
The "Go To" Guys in Electric Power

Stephen where's the power package I used? Where is the one using the 450 that Joe suggests? (I tried it and it is ballistic)
This plane has more possibilities!!!!!
I just got back from flying the Quattro a few minutes ago, 15 - 20 minute flights on my 3cell 2100's

One thing as I stand at the counter and sell planes, batteries and motors is the lack of attention paid to the design airframe in considering the power package. The weight of a chosen plane is mostly what I hear about then the prop and battery size. There is just as much technology in the type and size of the airfoil, the tail plane and fuse. All of that and the weight of the power package effect the wing loading. The extra power of a bigger power package diminishes as the pack discharges and turns into uneeded weight for the duration of the flight, while a lighter power package starts with a lighter sum of components it keeps a more linear feel of power over the whole flight. The bigger motor NEEDS a bigger battery to fly it and on the other hand that motor has to haul around the bigger battery. I have built planes and tried different power packages and the best flights were the ones with the lightest wing loading.

I like the idea of the basic package using those 2 cell 2100's, one thing I keep thinking about as I fly this plane is the concept of using it as a trainer. I like the idea of slow planes for new pilots, slow flight matching their reaction time. I also still like the idea I am using the existing 2100's I had around flying other planes.
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Old Aug 06, 2008, 07:20 PM
CSRC Service and Support
Joe_Curd's Avatar
Erlanger, KY
Joined Nov 2006
131 Posts
You came to the source to get a high tech setup man, you wanted the lightest possible wing loading...remember telling me you had trouble getting it to land

The E5-L-13 motor, 10x5 prop, and 11.1 2100 15c pack will make the plane extremely light and extremely overpowered. However, I believe it is TOO light for a trainer.

The wing loading on this airframe is actually perfect for the E10 and higher capacity two cell setup. This plane is capable of 30 minute flights with the right battery. Gotta love multiple flights without recharging.

Joe Curd
www.CommonSenseRC.com
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Old Aug 06, 2008, 07:36 PM
AMA#845099
Ragemaster's Avatar
Spokane Felts Fld, Washington, United States
Joined May 2004
103 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Curd
You came to the source to get a high tech setup man, you wanted the lightest possible wing loading...remember telling me you had trouble getting it to land

The E5-L-13 motor, 10x5 prop, and 11.1 2100 15c pack will make the plane extremely light and extremely overpowered. However, I believe it is TOO light for a trainer.

The wing loading on this airframe is actually perfect for the E10 and higher capacity two cell setup. This plane is capable of 30 minute flights with the right battery. Gotta love multiple flights without recharging.

Joe Curd
www.CommonSenseRC.com
Too light? Joe thats like saying you had too much sex or too much chocolate, or even too much money!
My first landings were long and lofty but I was getting used to that Perfect light wingloading, remember I am flying this in a small soccer field where I usually flight things of the 30 inch variety. At our club field the big open spaces will make it a beautiful thing to give a new pilot long slow diliberate approaches. I use the flaps option all the time now and it sits right down flat on landings. Get out here in two weeks and fly with me! I will provide the steaks, lawn chairs and refreshments!
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Old Aug 06, 2008, 07:40 PM
CSRC Service and Support
Joe_Curd's Avatar
Erlanger, KY
Joined Nov 2006
131 Posts
HMMM steaks and beer...something tells me that wont get me a day off work. We need to come up with a better excuse

Can you do harrier landings with the flaps down

Joe
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Old May 01, 2009, 03:38 PM
CSRC Tech Crew's Avatar
Joined Mar 2009
263 Posts
Guys who see this plane being flown recognize what a good beginner plane it truly is:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1#post12149841
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