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Old Feb 12, 2003, 03:11 PM
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Nwebie

Hey , can you guys control rudder, elevator and speed with the walmat mini car thing tranfomed into a plane ???

Thanks for your help
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Old Feb 12, 2003, 03:18 PM
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Pick any two

You can have on-off control of speed (two speeds with some creativity -- see earlier posts on cruise and climb speeds).

You can have full right, full left or neutral control of the rudder.

You can have up, down or neutral control of the elevator.

Pick any two of the above.
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Old Feb 12, 2003, 03:26 PM
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Pick any two revisited

I am curious. When I set up the Motor Works car for the plane, I don't use one of the h-bridge outputs, say the Back terminal. Could this be use for a bit of up elevator during glides? In this scenario you could choose power or "trim for glide" using the forward and back buttons on the Tx.

Would this make any sense?

In the MW car the two circuits for motor and double coil appear to be identical.
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Old Feb 12, 2003, 04:35 PM
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Yep

John, you could do that !

mcross did it for his nocal bit conversion, using MW for a tail skid, and UP elevator

Very cool!!

Josh
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Old Feb 17, 2003, 07:56 PM
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Trials for Tadpoles did not work out.

There were wiring problems on Sat. and only one Tadpole flew. That was the previously successflu N20 machine. I did not get to try the twin or the geared bit motor versions.

The UFUB was a great success with the RFFS system, so following that direction I made a miniFrog. This is significantly bigger than a Tadpole, so I don't think it qualifies for the name. It looks promising. I used the skeletonized F3 approach and have an airframe that comes in at 12 g with actuator and wing hold-down magnets in place.

I just need to add the receiver and motor and we are off to the races.

WS 23"
Chord 4"
True Frog proportions and shapes.
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Old Feb 17, 2003, 09:47 PM
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Really nice plane John, It should do well. I will get back to my testing soon. I have a profile tadpole that really seems to work well. My second flew but ahad all the opposit problems of the first so this time took the middle road in design and made a profile. Weathers been real bad this weekend so I built a full size frog for my new pico system and 900ma li-ions.
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Old Feb 17, 2003, 11:01 PM
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Your frog looked good

But it wasn't blue.

You will love it.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 02:49 PM
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MiniFrog update

The MiniFrog came in at 22 g AUW. Pretty good for a 23" wingspan plane. It climbs smartly and transitions to glide very well.

The wing loading is 1.3 oz/sq ft
The motor is an N20 DD with GWS 2510 prop
The battery is a Kokam 230 mah
Standard MotorWorks Tx, Rx
Handmade coil (I need to wind a stronger one, it needs more rudder power)

By being so large, the balance issues are simpler to deal with. I did not test glide it, I just used my experience with full size Frogs to judge the C-of-G.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 02:51 PM
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Bigger?

How about a full-sized Frog using the same building techniques, but with two N20's on a differential steering arrangement? Same MotorWorks setup.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 08:20 PM
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I have a virgin bitchar, pico servos/receiver/esc, some edp50's, maybe some usable gears if I needed them but only large batteries (hippobats, qualcoms, 880lipolys and a 9V nimh).

I also have a really nice 12'x12' bedroom that looks soooooo inviting.

I keep thinking that compared to flying dual-dx2's, 12volt edp100's and peppy edp300 planes all at 12+ oz in less than 50'x50' plus obstacles, the bedroom should be a snap. I'm just not sure what I should shoot for. Something kinda big but slow and good turning, or something fast and smaller. One li cell or two. Save my pennies for smaller motors and cells or just go for it.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 10:04 PM
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Tight space flyer

Some guesses:

I think the wingspan needs to be fairly small for quick turning. (alternatively the control surfaces need to be very big with linked aileron/rudder)

I think a single cell LiPoly is your only hope. The K40 would be a good choice. That implies a motor which draws well under 200 ma. The K145 offers much more choice for motor/gear/prop combinations.

I think a highly geared bit motor could work.

I think a big prop like the FF rubber endurance folks use may be needed.

Wing loading well under 1 oz/sq ft is required.

I do think skeletized F3 has a prayer, but it is in its infancy. (slice to about 2 mm and skin out most of the foam leaving much smaller ribs than I have done to date. Use flying wires to stiffen the structure -- the single king post approach for a monoplane may be best.)

The minimum weight for a 4 mm pager, K40, Bit Rx and light coil would likely be 7 g. A 3g airframe and you are off to the races.

So for cheap you could play with achieving a 3g airframe glider which will carry the 10g total with enough WS to get the loading down. The rest is just copying what others have pioneered.

Check out postings by DrLiu and Lpark.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 10:19 PM
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What if I ran a dx2 on one lipoly with lots of upthrust. Maybe I could loaf around the room stalled.

Oh, any idea how to disable auto cut off on a gws ics-50.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 10:54 PM
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Fdisk,

I think that is about what the mini-ifo's do. Another approach for you would be to use split, skeletized F3 to build a IFO-like plane which would fly on a DXA and a pair of K560s. What is the published thrust of a DXA? The IFO like-plane could come in at well under four oz. Perhaps you could prop hang about the room and occasionally zip to the other side?

Don't know about the cut-off, but I think I once saw a post on that.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 11:21 PM
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I'm sorry to say that I suck with ifo or aileron type planes. I do okay with wings or triangles, but even then I need a lot more room than I do with a good stall-turning rudder.

What is the perfected method for skeletonizing the foam?
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 11:31 PM
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Skeletonizing

The process is to slice the F3 to 2 or 3 mm thick. Outline the panel to be removed by cutting about half way through. Push the foam to the center of the panel with your fingernail, crushing it sidways. Bend it up as you progress. There will be small tears. When one begins, switch to pushing from the other side. push the 3 corner tear flat and apply a VERY thin coat of hot glue to hold the edges in place.

I will do new thread soon on building the MiniFrog, since it seems to be a really nifty flyer and is a bit extreme in the size to weight ratio department.
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Old Feb 18, 2003, 11:42 PM
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Cool, thanks. I have no practice with slicing bluecor. I guess I better set up a new hotwire and screw up a panel or two.

Found a disable lvc thread with picture.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...LVC#post372467
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Old Feb 19, 2003, 09:45 PM
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MINI FROG WEIGHT

hello
i have done a clone of this idea in 2mm depron - have to say your skeletizing proceedure has it beat hands down. i can not come close to your auw of 22 grms. do you know the actual weight of just the airframe, without any hardware ?
practicing the skeletal technique - but really seems difficult for me.
but it has to be worth the effort with the amazing results you are achiving.
keep up the good work

jerbear
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Old Feb 20, 2003, 10:08 AM
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Skeletonizing

The weight of the airframe came in at 12g, but on a scale with only +-2g accuracy. The AUW is 22g on the same scale.

The bad news is that this process seems to be an artifact of the skinned nature of Dow Bluecore fanfold foam. It has a very distinct skin which can be peeled off. I just reversed the process and peeled out sections (panels) of foam from the skin. I do not believe true Depron has the same bonded, but separate skin. The equivalent would be to just cut panels out and cover with something like very thin but stretch resistant plastic sheeting.

It will be interesting to see what is possible along these lines with Depron. There is an old thread by Hoppy in the foamies forum on covering F3, you may want to look at that. The freezer paper idea looked good.
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Old Feb 27, 2003, 11:15 PM
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Tadpole works fine

I should get a new pic of the working one. The basic Tadpole flew great Tuesday. I flew through two batteries. The GWS 2.5X08 pushed the 20g AUW and 16" WS along just fine. After a bit I would have to glide down from the rafters of the gym.

This is an early version with the coil on the tail and the K145 jamed up in the nose.

I also messed about with a lighter airframe, but have had trouble with folding wings. Still a bit to work out in that area. The twin with bit motors has not worked out at all. It still seems like a viable concept, but I haven't hit upon the combination that works.
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Old Feb 27, 2003, 11:32 PM
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GWS 2.5X08

could you tell me what means you used to attach the GWS 2.5X08 to the 1 mm shaft of the n 20 ??


thanks
jerbear
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Old Feb 28, 2003, 12:25 AM
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It should slip right on the shaft, mine did and does.
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Old Feb 28, 2003, 07:47 AM
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Pressure

Lots of pressure. It is just a press fit.
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Old Mar 03, 2003, 05:47 PM
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my mini frog

hello jgardener

here is a pic of the almost completed mini frog. weight levels you achive are difficult to match - mine on the scale with the motor and mount (not installed yet) minus the kokam comes in at 27 grams. it is 2 mm depron fuse and 1 mm depron flying surfaces.
had to skeletonize a lot to get to this weight ( used some wrapping paper used by local craft store) actually weighs less than saran wrap.
question: i currently own the following which are the choices here.
at this weight would you make a recommendation for me ?
#1 n 20 for direct drive/gws 2510
#2 n 20 geared 4 1/2/ u 80 prop (bob selmans)
#3 gear box for twin n 20's (also bob selmans)
i have copied your mini-frog - so no mosfet - just antenna changes and took out l.e.d. cg with battery in compartment and motor+ mount sitting where they will be installed - seems to be about middle of wing. which of these choices are possibly eliminated without the mosfet ?
any advise would be very helpful.

thanks, jerbear
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Old Mar 04, 2003, 11:38 AM
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N20 with 2510 sounds good

The simplest would be the N20 DD. Geared with a larger prop would be better, but the amps should stay under or very near 0.5 or we are in uncharted water. If you could check the amp draw of the of the geared N20 then I would choose that if it came in OK.

Went to the gym for an hour of testing today. The 60% Frog was the best flyer. The two Tadpoles flew well. The Frog shaped one which was skeletonized flew very smooth.

All three were N20 DD.

The new twin, WS 23" and AUW 32g came unglued while trimming for balance. It seems like a good possibity.

You could try your miniFrog as a twin with differential thrust steering if you could make a removable motor system mount. If it didn't work out you could go back to a single N20.
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Old Mar 04, 2003, 11:41 AM
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I think I will try the KP00

I have a number of MW units around. I think I should try the KP00 geared motor with the U80. I think it will burn the Rx, but hey, we won't really know till we try. If it works, it opens up MW
hack planes up to 45g or more.
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Old Mar 04, 2003, 12:40 PM
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John, I think you will find like I did that there will be a slight loss in power with the KP00 on the MW rx, but I really don't think it will burn the rx up. I need to get back to mine, kinda miss messing around with it. Need to make a remote actuator, and change out the rx for one with more range. Still can not for the life of me figure out why this MW tx/rx has no range when my others are sooo good.

John, when you going for the super light Tadpole say under 12 grams AUW? You have the technology.
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Old Mar 04, 2003, 01:51 PM
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Tempting, ultralight Tadpole

K40, 2g,
Rx, 2+g,
Geared MW motor, 2+g
Airframe, 5g

Hmm. When I get my new, more accurate scales, this should be a first project.
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Old Mar 05, 2003, 03:00 PM
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another one

since i have no access to indoor flying i need to wait til no wind day to try the lil frog- so.... what to do in the meantime ..... make another ! think i will try a little different style plane - still using the pusher config. have the mosfets, but still not clear on wiring diagram for MW - so i will go without that mod. for now - the n20
with 4 1/2 to 1 gearbox is really noisy any how !!!
the twin gearbox (using 2 n20 motors on one gear) seems very interesting for more power with little added weight - for a little bigger airframe. there again - will just have to wait until i can get more info on the mosfet (boy is that thing tiny) a friend said to use a sewing machine needle/needle nosed plyers heated over gas stove for soldering that small. have to expierment with that when the time comes. currently - no soldering to board - just tiny wire extensions (harvested from an old computer mouse) great wire !!! was using tiny shrink tubing after soldering - but thought it was too much heat too close to the board. so now i use liquid electrical tape - works great !!
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Old Mar 08, 2003, 06:02 PM
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Is there a thread for tips on making skelecor? I finally tried my first test piece and I think I could use a few pointers.

Thanks.
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Old Mar 08, 2003, 07:18 PM
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skeketonizing

hello fdisc

i would have to defer to jgardener on that - as he is the pioneer of that technique. i believe he said he cuts half way through with exacto or razor blade - then sort of digs/cracks it out towards the center. think he said sometimes you will have small tears in the paper (skin) but they can be repaired with a little hot glue.
hope that helps

jerbear
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