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Old Feb 06, 2003, 10:57 AM
The effect is sadly temporary
Hippo's Avatar
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Joined Oct 2001
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John,

Thanks for the kind words. The proof will come if it flies... Right now I'm just building a 47% scale Frog. I'm using the skin for the rudder hinge, and it seems to have good centering force. We'll see. The wing will come out to be 16" x 3.3" Hopefully that won't be too draggy.

It sounds like you weren't overpowered after all. Maybe a gearbox will be called for? We'll see.

-Dan
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 11:22 AM
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Rochester Monroe Cty, New York, United States
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Prop choice

Well, I moved away from the U80 prop because the model seemed to be overpowered, perhaps I should go back. The real solution may be the GWS 2.5X1. I have some comming.

Gearing is a last resort. The prop gets bigger, the fuse gets taller or a pylon is needed, and a good bit of simplicity is lost, but other than that gearing would be a solution.

John
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 11:45 AM
The effect is sadly temporary
Hippo's Avatar
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Joined Oct 2001
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The Frog scales well.

It gets even smaller than this. I don't have pictures, but I've made a bunch of Micro-Frogs that have a 7" wingspan, and 6" fuse length. No radio gear that small, but with a dime as a noseweight, it flies great as a chuck glider. Loops, circles and long glides.

I was thinking that with the original style pylon etc, that my 47% version could easily swing a 5" prop. That could work with a geared n20, or an Astro Firefly, and an rffs-100. If I scaled it up a little, I could use one of the GWS lps systems. But, for me the whole point of the exersize right now is to use the $13 radio gear, and the $0.75 motor. If we can pull it off, I'll be thrilled. I have no doubt's that an RFFS version would work great.

-Dan
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 12:44 PM
Foam rules
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HdG Md.
Joined Jan 2003
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John, I made a small slitter using a foam knife. Its good for cutting up to 3.5" in width. If I need to cut wider I'll go to my fathers house, we have been cutting foam cores sense the early 70's and have the hole setup.

I cut the readyboard down to 1.25mm's which left me with the 3/4mm drop after the pass. This I used for the top and bottom of the fuse. I thought about glueing the 2 sides at the bottom but them it wouldn't sit there nicely on the bench and how about slick landings, don't like when they lay over. Sounds like mine came out the same weight as Hippo's so I'm not to worried.

Radio install tonight.

Should have my charger soon, so I could be in business shortly, though I would like to try it with nicads too just to see if it would work.
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 01:45 PM
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Rochester Monroe Cty, New York, United States
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NiCads

For economy NiCads would be great. NiCad chargers are more readily availiable. Possibly start with the U80 prop and thee cells?
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 10:57 PM
Foam rules
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HdG Md.
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Well here's the latest, and yes I went with a tractor setup. This was only way to balance without adding more weight to the nose. Next one.

Didn't make the hobby shop today to pickup small plugs for the connections so its not done yet, always tomorrow.
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Old Feb 07, 2003, 12:04 AM
The effect is sadly temporary
Hippo's Avatar
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Joined Oct 2001
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Ooh stylish.

ThatOvalGuy,

That one looks pretty neat. I like the pointy nose, although it's probably destined to be smushed... I'd like to see some close-ups of your rudder setup if I could, I'm not too familiar with actuators, and trying to catch up.

I'll have pics of mine tomorrow.
-Dan
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Old Feb 07, 2003, 07:00 AM
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Looiking good, Hippo

Dan,

The finished airframe looks good. What is the AUW and other parameters?

That can wait till it flies, I guess.

I made some more actuators last night. There is a good bit of info on how to make a spool to get them neat and square, but you can just hand roll them on a straw, let the glue dry and slip them off.

John
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Old Feb 07, 2003, 02:25 PM
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What about using the bitchar stuff to make a rudder/elev tow glider? An overpowered regular frog could haul it way up and you could thermal it until your arms fell off.
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Old Feb 07, 2003, 04:51 PM
Foam rules
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HdG Md.
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Don't think we could get that type of range with it, plus the radios are questionable as far as working 100%, it could work. Would you want to risk a frog though.
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Old Feb 07, 2003, 04:58 PM
The effect is sadly temporary
Hippo's Avatar
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Joined Oct 2001
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Here we go again.

Well, I've been cutting my foam 60/40 to get it a little thinner. Why not save some weight if I can right? Anyway, I've got all these Tadpole parts lying around from thicker half of the 60/40 split, and decided to make a testbed from them. This is the exact size my little plane will be, I just used the undesireable half of the sheet.

Total airfame weight came out to be 11g, so I think my thin one will be around 10. I used RC-56 glue to put it all together. I taped the n-20 motor in place, and tape on some washers to simulate the weight of the receiver and battery. I haven't taken the actuator weight into account yet, so hopefully I won't be too tailheavy. It glides pretty well, and is nearly indestructable because it is so light. We're getting close to insect scale strength factors.

Those are 1" squares, and the HUUUGE thing next to it is a Li-Ion battery pack. This is one small Frog.


I'll keep you all posted,
-Dan
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Old Feb 07, 2003, 07:54 PM
Foam rules
Thatovalguy's Avatar
HdG Md.
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Thats where I got in trouble, I think I over wound the coil, 62 ohm. Than when you mount it to the tail it's hard to balance, so thats why mine is a tractor. A Selman style that could be mounted in the mid section would be real nice. Loaded up to estimated flying weight mine glides all the way across my 21ft den loosing about a foot and half, than it hits the wall. The nose still has its point though a seam did crack open, a little glue fixed that. Radio gos in tonight.
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Old Feb 07, 2003, 10:13 PM
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Coil weight

I can't weigh my new coils, but they are small and light. They are freehand wound from a big roll of AWG 43 wire I got at the surplus store. I just wind them on a soda straw with ca applied twice, wait a bit to cure and slide them off. They come out between 40 and 60 ohlms. I don't count or measure, just wind till it looks about right.

The rudder using these has good motion and does the job. They appear to be significantly lighter than the DU variety, but I can't weigh things that light.
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Old Feb 08, 2003, 01:35 AM
Foam rules
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HdG Md.
Joined Jan 2003
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Have no idea what the gage is I used. The wire is from a battery wall clock coil. Staples has a digital scale that weighs in 1 gram increments, thinking on getting one, its under $50.

Took my tadpole out in the wind tonight and gave it a few test hops across the yard. The wind was blowing between 1 and gusting to 5mph, not good but what can I say, I wanted to try it. three times I made it across the yard before the wind had its way with the little plane. Twice turned it upside down in the air and slammed it into the snow and once got it down only to have the wind kick up and blow it over again.

Think it needs more up thrust in the motor other than that not much right now. Was able to correct and fight the breeze well and make head way with it so I'm pleased and lucky that there was no damage. Will try to take it to our church hall and fly it this weekend, my wife has a key. It came out at 24grams AUW.

Tried it once in my living room but the wife didn't think that was to funny having a plane crashing into things in there, and it ate up that 24ft to fast.
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Old Feb 08, 2003, 02:45 PM
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Rochester Monroe Cty, New York, United States
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Scales

I need a new scale too. I am holding out for a 0.1 g resolution. The $30 WalMart foodscale gets 2 g resolution.
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Old Feb 08, 2003, 03:00 PM
What goes up must come down..
Canada, QC, Saint-Laurent
Joined Jan 2002
1,718 Posts
FYI about scales...

For your information there is this one:
http://www.scalesgalore.com/tjewel.htm#tkp100
solar power, foldable pouch up to 100gr. on sale this month! there are many here.
Or you can build a simple mechanical one out of wood and MW, calibrate it etc...
Roger
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Old Feb 08, 2003, 05:18 PM
Foam rules
Thatovalguy's Avatar
HdG Md.
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Well right now I want a new radio for small stuff, but the happy news is my charger came today and I am in business for full out testing.
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Old Feb 10, 2003, 01:06 PM
Foam rules
Thatovalguy's Avatar
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Well, It was a great calm night last night for testing and here is the vertic. This version although it flys, is a horrible flier. I need to redesign. The vertical stab area is to small and makes it vary skidish to turn no matter how much weight you add or take off the nose. Power was great on a 2508 or 2510, I had it up about 20ft in about 50 ft of run. The wing is to thin and will flutter bad in a dive which happens if while turning it skids the tail. The forward mounted motor is to high and causes to much nose over when motor starts, even with alot of up thrust. Strength is its one great feature. Flew it into the side of the house twice, spiraled in from 15ft and lower many times and it still kept on asking for more.

The next one will be a pusher, wing motor tail on the same center line. Wing thicker material and vertical tail larger area than it should fly right.

Had a blast anyway, live and learn.
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Old Feb 10, 2003, 01:56 PM
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Positives

Thatovalguy

So, the positives were

1. The Rx did not cook
2. The N20 with the 2508 is enough to lift it at 20 g
2. The basic shape should work.

Is this rignt?
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Old Feb 10, 2003, 03:42 PM
Foam rules
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I messed up when I added length to the nose on this one, alot of frontal area. When I cut the wing material 1.5mm, wont bend up but will flutter. Putting the motor high on a perch caused all sorts on down thrust. Alot of no no's.

But the radio worked fine, the motor prop pulled vary well. And whats nice, I don't feel bad about scapping this one and building anouther 50 cent airplane.
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Old Feb 10, 2003, 06:45 PM
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I tried putting the motor high on my something else so that the propshaft was 4" above the wing LE. I had to put at least 10 degrees of upthrust to get it to fly well with that setup.

The first flight went *really* bad because I didn't know this and I actually had a tiny bit of down--plus I launched it from a 2nd story deck. This height usually gives me a little extra trim time, but it just let the SE gain more speed before impact.
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 01:42 PM
Foam rules
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Well last night downloaded the prints for the real frog from Hippo and today printed out the full size and a size that should be good for the Tadpole. Tonight will be a Tadpole building night, and this weekend 2 Frogs will be born, 1 for me, and 1 for dad.
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 01:52 PM
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Frogs forever

My Tadpole flew fine in the gym today. At least the one with the N20 and GWS 2508 did. The one with the geared car motor was a bust.

I built a scale Frog the other night, and it looks so much better than my design. Good choice.

On that one I am putting two car motors geared about 3:1 with some Hobbico props of about 3". I tried the gear out with one motor on each circuit, actuator and motor. I should get differential thrust control and two car motors drawing less amps.

The AUW should come in at 22g for a true-to-the-Frog Tadpole with two tractor motors wing mounted. The airframe is going to be proportionatly as tough as the original Frog. The fuse is 11" long, if I remember right.
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 02:40 PM
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Hong Kong, Kowloon, Hung Hom
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Do you guys know if the RX can handle 2 N20's or m20s? one on each control? if so, that would make some really nice twin possibilities....
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 02:53 PM
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Looks like it might

I don't have any batteries that would handle it, but that is something I want to try when I get some K230's (on the way). The two output circuits seem to have the same components so I think it might work. That could handle a plane up to about 40 g or more.

Without the electronics knowledge to analyze this, I would just try it as a $15 experiment.
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 07:13 PM
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indianapolis, indiana
Joined Oct 2002
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TO: JGARDENER AND THATOVALGUY

hello

i have been following this post religously ! i would love to see you guys suceed - ie i would love to have a few small planes that could use the motorworks stuff without major mods. (these flight packs tend to get expensive -when you buy several)

i have on hand some 1mm. depron (imported from the U.K.)
white - which is a nice change from blue all the time. i would be happy to send each of you a sheet (plenty for mini frog) if you e mail me your complete addresses.

the only thing i ask in return is if you can make this project work - i would like to have some pics of how to do the basic wiring and hookup of the motorworks stuff. - not just for myself - but for all who are interested in your project. ie: posted here on e zone.

if you want to take me up on this - let me know

good luck and regards
jerbear
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 07:15 PM
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E MAIL ADDRESS

hello

sorry - forgot to include this - jerbearjjs@aol.com
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 07:42 PM
RPV builder & operator
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Canada, QC, Gatineau
Joined Jan 2001
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Any idea what the B2 prop size is, and if it would work on the tadpole?
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Old Feb 11, 2003, 07:49 PM
Foam rules
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HdG Md.
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Thanks for the offer and I will think about it. You know that any info we can share is shared, When I have something that I think all could build and fly I will share it, but I think Hippo is going to have to ok it with my next one, giving details on that plane being it will be so close to his full size Frog. Radio info is another story, it belongs to no one.

John, wonder if these are the first scale models of a foam flier?
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Old Feb 12, 2003, 12:05 AM
Foam rules
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HdG Md.
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Almost a exact scale model of the Frog. Small changes to ease building at this size, wing is a touch shorter, but the lines are exact. Glide tests prove to be better than my last 2 versions. I am going to omit the motor pylon somewhat to keep motor near center line.

Note cut plan templets on bench.
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