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Old May 24, 2008, 02:13 PM
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IHLGF POWAY : WAG selection / confusion

Hello to all,

The international WAG selection contest in Torino, Italy on the same June dates as the 2008 IHLG in Poway allows for pilots from a l l nationalities to score WAG selection points.

I feel that the WAG selection contest in Poway should comply, even if it is an AMA sanctioned contest. It should NOT exclude international pilots with an FAI license (after all WAG is an FAI sponsored event isn't it ?) to score selection points for the WAG in Torino June 2009.

Two WAG selection contests, but...two different standards ? If this would be true, it shows a very narrow minded approach.

I think the IHLGF organizers (Ron Sharck etc...) should take up their responsabilities and play the game full-out. After all, that's what it is : just a game, now isn't it ? Or should we as the "I" in IHLGF fly straight to the Polecat in Carlisle after all ? All the more that we still don't know who's attending in Poway anyway.

Yves
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Old May 24, 2008, 03:35 PM
M Seid
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Elaborate Yves, on how they are doing that. We have set this up to comply with the direction the FAI has provided to us.
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Old May 24, 2008, 03:49 PM
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I think your highlighting two separate issues.

1. The WAG selection process is a bit of a joke, it should have been constructed in such a way that each country has their own selection process and the top 2 pilots get an invite.

2. An "international hand-launch" festival, should be just that. (EDIT - having said this, I can understand the organisers dilemma, as a international WAG contests requires an FAI license, and it is unrealistic to expect domestic pilots to have to pay out for this, just to enter the contest.)

IMHO the selection process is badly thought out as it gives individual countries an opportunity to manipulate the results to pretty much guarantee entry. Invite all your friends and family to an event, give them an alula and a transmitter and tell them to give it a quick chuck-glide when the slot starts.... and 'ta daaa' you have given the competition winner a load of extra points to carry onto the 'world ranking table'. (as points carried forwards are dependent on the number of entrants.)
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Old May 24, 2008, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard S
I think your highlighting two separate issues.

1. The WAG selection process is a bit of a joke, it should have been constructed in such a way that each country has their own selection process and the top 2 pilots get an invite.

2. An "international hand-launch" festival, should be just that. (EDIT - having said this, I can understand the organisers dilemma, as a international WAG contests requires an FAI license, and it is unrealistic to expect domestic pilots to have to pay out for this, just to enter the contest.)

IMHO the selection process is badly thought out as it gives individual countries an opportunity to manipulate the results to pretty much guarantee entry. Invite all your friends and family to an event, give them an alula and a transmitter and tell them to give it a quick chuck-glide when the slot starts.... and 'ta daaa' you have given the competition winner a load of extra points to carry onto the 'world ranking table'. (as points carried forwards are dependent on the number of entrants.)
Right Richard. Good to see at least a few of us have understood how this "competition" works.

As for Poway (I mean the F6D Friday selection contest and not the IHLGF) : I don't see why pilots with a valid FAI licence would not be entitled to carry their scores forward to the world ranking table.

Let's be logical and turn this thing around : pilots - independant of their nationality - without a valid FAI licence should not be eligible for selection of an FAI event (WAG 2009). Nor should they be allowed to participate in a 2008 WAG selection event, even if it is an AMA sponsored event. This does not make any sense at all. It's a joke.

As a Belgian competitor I can effectively score points during the forthcoming WAG selection contest in Torino, but I cannot by flying the WAG selection contest on the Friday in Poway. This is illogical.

Yves De Vriendt
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Old May 24, 2008, 05:09 PM
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The alternative is to let domestic competitors compete without an FAI license, and also allow any foreign pilots to enter if they have a valid FAI license. This should keep everyone happy. (EDIT ops, I re-read your last post and realise this is what you were suggesting )

It is one of those situations where saying "yes" will harm nobody (as the top pilot(s) from North America will still get their automatic selection place). However I suspect the answer will still be 'no' from the FAI.

In principle I agree with the idea of having a competition format for 'air-sports promotion' that is designed to get spectators interested in the hobby. OK, the actual flying is not as exciting as F3K, but who cares if there are a load of spectators cheering.

The difficulty we have found, is that we have to fly this same format in qualification events.. where typically there is no audience. Pilots who already have a busy calendar with F3K events find it difficult to find the motivation to travel several hundred miles for a competition, where in theory they might only fly two rounds.

It's the same solution that keeps popping up. Have the F3K WC's on alternate years to the WAG's (looks like this is what will happen anyway), use the domestic F3K league to select pilots for each country to put forwards. Then there is no dilemma for pilots with a hectic calendar to decide between attending a WAG selection contest or an F3K league event.

Don't you just love politics
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Old May 24, 2008, 05:38 PM
M Seid
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mickey mouses house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ydevriendt
Right Richard. Good to see at least a few of us have understood how this "competition" works.

As for Poway (I mean the F6D Friday selection contest and not the IHLGF) : I don't see why pilots with a valid FAI licence would not be entitled to carry their scores forward to the world ranking table.

Let's be logical and turn this thing around : pilots - independant of their nationality - without a valid FAI licence should not be eligible for selection of an FAI event (WAG 2009). Nor should they be allowed to participate in a 2008 WAG selection event, even if it is an AMA sponsored event. This does not make any sense at all. It's a joke.

As a Belgian competitor I can effectively score points during the forthcoming WAG selection contest in Torino, but I cannot by flying the WAG selection contest on the Friday in Poway. This is illogical.

Yves De Vriendt

Yves I personally couldnt agree more, but this is not a Poway or ron scharck issue and opening up the thread in the way you did was missing the mark from the get go. This is an item to be changed by the FAI. We were asked to host a national selection contest directly by the WAG organiser. We followed the guidance they provided, and are well behind the rest of the world with wag-speak. Frankly TPG was looking to provide some incentive and interest in a friday event, rather than a pro am etc. There is very little interest that the IHLGF committee has towords politcs, or exclusion, and would hope that your insights would be heard by the FAI. We cannot run a contest outside the rules as published, and do not have the enthusiam toward WAG to then account for all the "what ifs." We dont give you ranking credits (whatever that really is) for Torino. We are excited to have you attend, and look forward to seeing you at the contest.
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Old May 24, 2008, 05:40 PM
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Yves

This was pretty well hashed out in previous threads as I recall. The FAI offers two choices for WAG selection contests:

1) International contests where everyone must have an FAI license.

2) National contests where everyone who competes is from the host country and an FAI License is not required.

It is not practical for the IHLGF organizers to host an international WAG selection contest because almost none of the Americans will have an FAI license and it would require a $50 fee to get one. Therefore, very few people would fly the WAG selection contest, or if their participation without an FAI license were allowed, their scores could not be used for WAG selection points.

That leaves the National selection contest as the only other alternative. In the previous thread, methods were discussed that would allow participation of international pilots in the selection contest as long as that participation did not affect the outcome of the selection contest for the national pilots. The only remaining downside for the international pilopts is that they cannot use the results of this selection contest to post scores for WAG selection.

So the choice as I see it, is: 1) to inconvenience at least 70 national pilots by forcing them to choose between spending $50 to enter the selection contest or have their scores not count for WAG selection and have the effective contest size for WAG selection points be substantially reduced. Or 2) inconvenience a few international pilots by not running a contest where their scores can be used for WAG selection.

Since the Poway contest is the only WAG selection contest that is likely to be run in North America and there are many WAG selection contests in Europe, do you realistically expect that the IHLGF organizers would or should select option 1 and run an international contest?

If you are campaigning for an option 3; a selection contest with international participation and no FAI license required, shouldn't you be addressing that to the FAI?
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Old May 24, 2008, 05:42 PM
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Mike posted while I typed my response. Looks like we are on the same page.
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Old May 24, 2008, 05:55 PM
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Yves

I went back and read through the other thread a bit:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...91#post9468291

Ron gave you the answer to this question on March 31, and you responded that you were happy with the solution. Its a little late to try and change things now.
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Old May 25, 2008, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Barnes
Yves

I went back and read through the other thread a bit:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...91#post9468291

Ron gave you the answer to this question on March 31, and you responded that you were happy with the solution. Its a little late to try and change things now.

That's right Phil. I was, and am very satisfied that at least we can fly on Friday. And I do appreciate that the Poway organizers found a solution to keep everybody happy (and flying). Thanks again Ron.

But just a few days ago my Italian friends started inviting everyone (read "not only Italians") for the WAG selection contest in Torino (same dates as the Poway weekend). The difference is that all participants can score points for an eventual selection. Of course their selection contest is "international" and not AMA.

Maybe I should just accept the fact that this WAG happening is not really a competition but just a way to designate two Americans for a pasta holiday in Torino.

Look forward to seeing y'all in Californ-eye-a ;-)

Yves
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Old May 25, 2008, 08:33 AM
Gustavo Exel
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I haven't read in detail the rules for WAG selection but I understand your points are proportional to how many people were there in the competition you scored them at.

In this particular case of the Poway friday event we are talking about, which is a local and not an international WAG selection competition (like the one your Italian friends are holding), does the international non-scoring competitors also count as "competition participants" in terms of multiplying the winner's scores?

If yes, Yves, you'll either help the two Americans into the pasta holiday or, if you quit participating for that reason, you can time for me.
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Old May 25, 2008, 10:54 AM
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I can fully understand Yves frustration. I don't think this is in any way a dig at the Poway event.. but more at the inconsitencies with how the qualification for F6D at the WAGS is currently formatted.

Rather than being based on individual countries getting invitations allocated to them, it is based on continents. This means that it is pretty much guarenteed that the USA will get a couple of pilots automatic selection to the WAG's. I guess (although I might be wrong) that Brazil will also get a couple of guys automatically invite, as they are the only country I know of in South America who are very active in handlaunch.

This is great, because the USA and Brazil deserve to have a couple of guys each reprisenting them at what is effectively an FAI International championship event.

It gets a bit more complex in Europe as we have a lot of different countries but only two competitors from the whole continent get automatic selection.

I think the structure would be far better if the top two pilots from each country in F3K were given automatic selection to the WAG's. This would mirror the type of selection process a typical World Championship event has.

There are approx 20 countries worldwide that are active in F3K, this gives 40 competitors and the chance for a genuine battle for the F6D crown at the WAG's.

In the UK, we can just about guarentee getting one or two pilots selected by doing the following.

Organise 4x NAC events, make cheap EPP models and give them to anyone who is willing to turn up, telling them just to chuck-glide the model in each slot.

Agree that if any one pilot gets a 1st and 2nd place in the first two comp's (which should guarentee enough points to get selected to the WAG's), then they only 'chuck-glide' in the next two NAC's so someone else has the opportunity to score top points too and get their selection process.

I've no problems in doing this - but it is not a well thought out, fair or transparent selection process. Paticularly for a chance to compete at what has been touted as a more prestigious event than any World Championship. (?)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love the chance to compete at the WAG's, I just find it ridiculous that in the UK we have to construct some sort of ridiculous selection process, artificially engineered to help increase the chance of entry... while in the USA has the much more simple (and fair) option of just running one event and sending their top two pilots.
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Old May 25, 2008, 11:04 AM
M Seid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ydevriendt

Maybe I should just accept the fact that this WAG happening is not really a competition but just a way to designate two Americans for a pasta holiday in Torino.

Yves

Two "North Americans" Our central american, and candian friends in the region should not be excluded.
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Old May 25, 2008, 11:24 AM
M Seid
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Richard,

You are right, and I would think what with all the energy spent getting F3K WC status, and international acceptance, to install a second class for handlaunch serves little purpose. The WAG could have have easily used f3k tasks as spectators would not know the difference, and qualification could easily be based on each countries largest two f3k (dlg) events for qualification. If the FAI really wanted the USAs best, then the IHLGF and the Polecat would be the 2 USA qualifiers. The top 2 highest placing pilots over both events would go, rather than the format we have- and no separate event needs to be flown- but the objective of ranking pilots would be acheived. In fact- USA pilot-we should do this regardless-take the normalized scores over both events and come up with a national ranking...

For the UK, would it be just as useful to determine the 2 qualifying events be based solely on the number of registered pilots? Are there 2 premier events in each country that would serve to determine that countries best?

I would think the German Open would be one contest for selecting 2 german pilots for the WAG- no separate F6D event would ever be flown- and regardless of whether a german pilot won or not- the top 2 would be ranked for Germany only.
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Old May 25, 2008, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gustabmo

If yes, Yves, you'll either help the two Americans into the pasta holiday or, if you quit participating for that reason, you can time for me.
Gustavo,

I hardly ever (read "never") quit, but I will gladly time for you anytime I'm not flying myself. The facelifted times the hair transplanted .
Should be interesting .

More seriously : have a look at Richard's comments in the previous post. It's right on the ball and says it all.

Cheers,

Yves
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