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Old May 09, 2008, 12:37 AM
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Large Hadron Collider... Oh the loonies.

It's like Y2k all over again. People think a black hole will be made and the planet will be destroyed in it. Well, we've already made black holes, black holes have been made in the upper atmosphere naturally due to cosmic rays.

This guy Walter. L Wagner is using pseudo-science and rhetoric as an argument to stop the LHC from starting experiments. The premises for his argument are all false. It doesn't guarantee his conclusion is false, but he's not as developed in the physics area as his brethren. He's speaking in terms of proof, yes or no, and is an alarmist. Just great. Frankly, I don't think he really understands what's going on in there. He's talking like the physicists building the thing don't have a clue what's going on in the machine. It's a really big synchrotron. He may understand physics, but something is probably wrong in how he thinks about science. He's not the worst out there (by far), but he may gain momentum with people who don't have a developed process to analyze the scientific perspective of the physicists doing the work at CERN.

BTW, he's on coast to coast am right now if you'd like to listen to him. Here's a list of stations you can pick up (internationally) through https://www.reciva.com/index.php
List of stations:
http://www.ccrane.com/radios/wifi-ra...c-streams.aspx

just search for KSFO, it comes in great there. FM quality sound it seems. I think I'll be getting a wifi radio.
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Old May 09, 2008, 05:25 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
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South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
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"We're all doomed, doomed I tell you".

But think of the benefits that the LHC will bring to mankind......................................


Errr, does any one know.....?
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Old May 09, 2008, 07:20 AM
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Joined Oct 2000
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Jeez, You guys need to get out of the basement more. Everyone knows the LHC was an invention in the mind of Dan Brown, in "Angels and Demons".

Marten
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Old May 09, 2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accu157
People think a black hole will be made and the planet will be destroyed in it. Well, we've already made black holes, black holes have been made in the upper atmosphere naturally due to cosmic rays.
It's only a theory, not yet backed up by observations.
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Old May 09, 2008, 10:05 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
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South Wales U.K.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madsci_guy
It's only a theory, not yet backed up by observations.
Any fan of Looney Tunes knows that black holes can be bought from the Acme Novelty Co.

Montana Max, (Tiny Toon Adventures) also had a factory producing them.

Even good old Wiki has a page on Portable Holes, so of course holes exist.
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Old May 09, 2008, 11:02 AM
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Does this replace HCGW?
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by supertiga
Does this replace HCGW?
This guy would be considered your side of the "HCGW" topic. Someone on the fridge with limited credentials, no published papers on the topic and without the support of any respected practicing scientific body. The other side, basically the rest of the scientific community.

This project is pretty cool, I am looking forward to it starting even if to the average person, myself included, it seems somewhat scary to create black holes.

I thought this video was pretty cool, I might actually start my own topic about it and Brian because he is a popularizer of science, something science desperately needs.

Brian Cox: CERN's supercollider (16 min 26 sec)
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:15 PM
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But the world will end, the possible impact no one can say can't happen is so severe, we should act to stop it because of the risk. This sounds a lot more like your side.
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:25 PM
And You're Not
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurpal
Someone on the fridge with limited credentials
If he's too dumb to know that the credentials are IN the fridge, next to the beer, then he deserves ridicule and scorn.
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:26 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
But the world will end, the possible impact no one can say can't happen is so severe, we should act to stop it because of the risk. This sounds a lot more like your side.

Not really. The relative odds are so significantly distinct as to make one prudent while the other is paranoid.
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:35 PM
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This doesn't scare me - the Klingons and Romulans have had quantum singularity containment technology since 1979 or so - they use it somehow in their cloaking device, and everybody knows that Earthlings are way smarter than Klingons and Romulans - the only reason we don't have cloaking devices is because of politics. So you know - I'm not concerned as long as the High Council doesn't take it the wrong way and think we're working on a cloaking device or some kind of WMD... because you know, those are prohibited by The Federation - and the last thing you want to do is piss off the Klingons - they're not exactly rational when there's the chance of a fight...

So they create a temporary singularity for 1/1000th of a nanosecond - that's not even enough time to suck in objects from an inch away. It's certainly not going to create a black hole or something crazy like that.
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrsudog
Not really. The relative odds are so significantly distinct as to make one prudent while the other is paranoid.
They don't even have the means to objectively measure the relative risk. It boils down to armwaving and a show of hands that means nothing to the actual reality of what is occurring.
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:47 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
They don't even have the means to measure the relative risk. It boils down to armwaving.

Sure they do. You just refuse to recognize it.
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:51 PM
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I refuse to recognize what does not exist, regardless of how many claim it does.

Once again, we run into the fact that their science is not fully falsifiable, their risks are claimed not measurable, and regardless of of how many vote on it, it remains the same.
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Old May 09, 2008, 02:55 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
I refuse to recognize what does not exist, regardless of how many claim it does.
As I said. You can add all the quantifiers you wish, but it all boils down to you refuse to recognize it because you feel it does not exist, while others recognize it because they feel it does exist.

Quote:
Once again, we run into the fact that their science is not fully falsifiable, their risks are claimed not measurable, and regardless of of how many vote on it, it remains the same.
No, it does not. No scientific theory is required to be "Fully falsifiable" in the manner you require. The same standard applied to the TOE would result in the same reluctance to accept it as the best scientific understanding of how we got here.
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