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Old Mar 30, 2008, 10:54 AM
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Malaysia, Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur
Joined Jun 2007
358 Posts
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ETNZ cannot sail in to the wind direction any advise or tips ?

I have a stock setup ETNZ few months already and i'm getting frustrated on it's sailing characteristic. It might be my tuning or rigging problem what so ever, and i've tried to adjust and tune everything but the boat just won't sail into the wind direction and i always lose to my good friend of mine (darthdude) ........ i'm using everything stock but should i upgrade the sail or should i just redo my rigging properly again? any tuning or tips with photos wil be helpful ..... i'm running out of ideas and thinking of replacing the stock sail to sail from either Isobar or go spectre but i just want to know whether anyone still using the stock sail and manage to put up a fight with other boats?
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 12:40 PM
Norman2
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Connestee Falls, Brevard, North Carolina
Joined Mar 2006
385 Posts
ETNZ Sailing into Wind Direction

Lamafever, There is no sailboat in the world that sails into wind direction. That
is why you tack when going against the wind. Your stock sails are not the best
and you will find a lot of improvement with Isobar or Gospectre sails. I got the
Gospectre sails and it is a great improvement. in stronger winds I can keep up
with any Seawind however I have another boat (Photo attached that will sail
circles around any Seawind.
Norman2
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 04:02 PM
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Blackpool, Lancs
Joined Feb 2006
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If you cant manage 45 degrees off the wind when close hauled, you have a problem. If you can manage this, then that is how it works.
The important thing is to be able to tack when you want to (i.e. before meeting the bank) and get on the opposite 45 degree to the wind quickly. The big trick is to have the fore set so that it has a little more slack than the main when the main is fully in. This gives a bit more drive from the back when tacking. Once this is sorted, tuning for sail shape comes fairly naturally.
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 08:30 PM
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Chiloquin Oregon
Joined Mar 2008
9 Posts
ETNZ cannot sail in to the wind direction any advise or tips ?

Sailing any size boat is an acquired skill. There are tips and tricks that can be learned with time.

The questions are, when you sailed with your buddy does he have the same make of boat as you? If he does, then swap boats and resail the race course. Does he still beat you or do you now have a better chance. If he beat you just as easily as he did with his boat, then you need more practice. Find all the videos you can on sailing sloops and watch how they manage their boats while tacking. If you had a better chance against your buddy with his boat then you might have a boat problem, I.E. tuning.

Is your boat really clean in the water? When you push his boat in the water without the sails set watch the wake it makes. Now push your boat, are the wakes similar. If yours make a bigger wake, you may have a hull out of spec. That is it may be too wide which will really slow the boat down. With both boats out of the water try moving the rudder and sails on both boats, do they seem similar, if not what's different? Look at the placement of the mast, is it the same for both boats, a mast to far forward or aft can drastically alter sailing characteristics. Look at the rake of the mast, is it the same? Double check the rudder on both boats, does yours have as clean a lines as his? A misshaped rudder can allow the boat to not point (go to weather) very well. Match everthing you can see visually to see if there are any obvious differences.

The beauty of one design racing is that the boats should all be pretty equal except for sailing skills, make sure that is a true statement. I race in the 50/800 class and the boats are really fast. Having said that the secret to winning in that class is hull speed. Don't stall the boat, keep the boat moving all the time. The attached chart has a red zone in it. Know what that is for your boat and stay out of the red zone. Keep the boat moving, watch the water 15 to 20 feet to windward. Thats where the next puff is coming from, anticipate what your boat will do when that puff hits and react accordingly. Remember keep the boat movingl.

I would try lots of things before resorting to equipment upgrades. Let your buddy run your boat for a while. Let him tweak on it a bit. Then giver' another try. Keep us posted as to how you do.

Above all, have fun! Russ
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 08:53 PM
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Malaysia, Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur
Joined Jun 2007
358 Posts
I think i'm having this problem .... i have been sailing not long and i don't know some of the terms, but when when friend pass me his Seawind, i could sail better .... where by for ETNZ i have to get the wind behind my sail and i'm losing a lot on the upwind tack. How to get the sail from go spectre cause they do not have online shop right ? and they are selling the whole boat or mast and sail can be purchase separately. I'm losing hope in ETNZ and might be thinking of getting a Seawind .... although it's a lit bit higher in price but it has all the quality parts and well designed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mfr02
If you cant manage 45 degrees off the wind when close hauled, you have a problem. If you can manage this, then that is how it works.
The important thing is to be able to tack when you want to (i.e. before meeting the bank) and get on the opposite 45 degree to the wind quickly. The big trick is to have the fore set so that it has a little more slack than the main when the main is fully in. This gives a bit more drive from the back when tacking. Once this is sorted, tuning for sail shape comes fairly naturally.
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 11:02 PM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,544 Posts
http://www.gospectre.com/ you could also try
http://www.isobaryachts.com/etnz.htm
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Last edited by martin richards; Mar 30, 2008 at 11:10 PM. Reason: link added
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 11:32 PM
Landlubber
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Joined Jul 2007
596 Posts
Lamafever's trouble is that he can't sail as close to the wind as I can in my Seawind thanks to the sail which is..... well... let's just say it needs a lot of filling.

Here's the problem:-


Actually here's a better pic:-


You can see the ETNZ's sails are slack compared to the Seawinds'. And you can't tension them any more than that without performing some surgery to the sail.

That "slackness" means Lamafever needs a lot more angle to the wind when beating compared to my Seawind. He loses SO much time when beating, he can't make it back when reaching or running when the ETNZ is faster- especially in stronger winds.

The sail material is also really thick and heavy which doesn't help in lighter winds.

I'm very sure once the sail's shortcomings have been addressed the ETNZ is potentially a very potent sailboat indeed. I'm thinking we could even improve on the stock sails with a thoughtful home brew sail.

Only trouble is that we just don't seem to be able to get down to it since we're always too busy sailing!!



Darth

p/s- this is a hardware problem, not a software one. Lamafever is actually a good enough skipper in that once he's on equal equipment he's plenty fast enough. It's just that darned sail that's holding his ETNZ back.
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Last edited by DarthDude; Mar 30, 2008 at 11:45 PM.
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:34 AM
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Chiloquin Oregon
Joined Mar 2008
9 Posts
DarthDude - Thanks for the clarification. You are right about the sail angle in relationship to the hull and wind. I will admit I'm not an expert on the Entz but the trouble in the sail has me a little stumped. I understand stiff heavy sails are not good for light airs but that would not account for being slack when fully drawn in. Could the problem lie within the sail winch / servo area? Where is the deck lead pass through into the hull, is it outboard or? Seems there should be some explanation. I don't think changing sails will help if the current sails can't be brought in taunt. It's got me stumped! Russ
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:36 AM
Registered User
Sydney, NSW, Australia
Joined Jan 2005
971 Posts
Looks like the main needs to be sheeted in more (maybe reduce the length of the main (and jib) sheet?

Can you post some closeups of the main boom area?

Also, the head of the main looks to be rather loose in that second shot, so put some more tension on the vang (check the yellow boat far left of the picture).
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:53 AM
Landlubber
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Joined Jul 2007
596 Posts
Hiya Russ and Becsta....

Welp, all I can make of it is that if you're gunna use the stock sails you have to lengthen the boom since the length of the foot of the sail from clew to tack is just way too long for the length of the boom supplied.

Unfortunately you can't lengthen the boom since the backstay will then get in the way when gybing.

So, IF lamafever is up to taking a pair of scissors to the sail (we've balked at this so far) the cure would be to trim about an inch off the leech of the sail from clew to head.

Also the slack you can see in the second shot can't be cured by tightening the vang because it's coming from that blasted swinging goosneck thing at the head. Tighten the vang and the darned gooseneck just bends downward under the weight of the sail material and the sail goes slack again. I reckon the answer to that one is to replace the plastic gooseneck with a metal one or to just secure the end of it to the mast crane so that it doesn't swing and doesn't bend downwards under the weight of the sail.

ETNZ is potentially a very good yacht. Apart from a poorly designed hatch cover which leaks and a sail designed by someone who was evidently smoking something I'd LOVE to get my hands on plus a few niggling quality control problems with the plastic bits, she's probably very very fast indeed.

Lemme see if I got more pics. I'll post them if I can find anything.

Cheers

Darth
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:58 AM
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Malaysia, Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur
Joined Jun 2007
358 Posts


OK i've mark all the area that i've tried to adjust those sheets for the main sail .... I've tried to tighten both A and B but the C where by it's just a thin piano cable which is holding the top of the main sail can be bent easily.

I need to let the sheet loose so that i can get a full sail area and if i tighten the sheet more i'll have the creese at the centre of the sail .....no matter how tight i have to adjust them it's still there ....

So perhaps a better design sail from gospectre or isobaryacht will solve the sail issue ? anyone can confirm that changing the sail ? I don't mind to get a proper sail instead of sail the yacht with a bad sail, cause the boat really deserve to have a better sail
Thanks Darth for explaining those stuff in details, and i really need to learn to be a sailor not a village sailor who doesn't know sailing term :P my bad .... i'll pick up every now and then while we sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by becsta
Looks like the main needs to be sheeted in more (maybe reduce the length of the main (and jib) sheet?

Can you post some closeups of the main boom area?

Also, the head of the main looks to be rather loose in that second shot, so put some more tension on the vang (check the yellow boat far left of the picture).
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 02:46 AM
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Jakarta Indonesia
Joined Jun 2006
227 Posts
Hi Lamafever , Have a look at isobar's web site if you and the Dude are thinking about having a go at making a new set of sails ,you might get a few ideas. The sails he shows look a lot nicer than the photo's you posted here.He also mentions something about not using the wire at the head of the sail to improve down wind performance??
Andrew at Gospectre also produces Sails but I couldn't find any photo's / info on his web site.

Cheers,
James
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 06:10 AM
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Malaysia, Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur
Joined Jun 2007
358 Posts
Andrew from Gospectre is fast response but slightly high in price.
Isobar i'm not too sure cause i've email him few months back but till now still no updates on the sail yet ..... everytime i skype him but no reply may be it's my luck


Quote:
Originally Posted by james carey
Hi Lamafever , Have a look at isobar's web site if you and the Dude are thinking about having a go at making a new set of sails ,you might get a few ideas. The sails he shows look a lot nicer than the photo's you posted here.He also mentions something about not using the wire at the head of the sail to improve down wind performance??
Andrew at Gospectre also produces Sails but I couldn't find any photo's / info on his web site.

Cheers,
James
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 06:25 AM
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Plimmerton, New Zealand
Joined Jun 2007
133 Posts
Sails

Lama,

I cannot always answerskype as it is too late or I dont hear it. My mylar sails are on my website now, and my e-mail is always answered with a short time of it being recieved.

todd@isobaryachts.com
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 07:31 AM
Registered User
Yorketown South Australia
Joined Jun 2005
22 Posts
Isobar sails

Hi guys my Isobar mylar sails are in the mail I will post some pics of them in action soon after they arrive.
I thought the sail cloth on my ENTZ was quite thin and light similar to spinakar cloth which would be half the weight of my 10rater sail cloth. However a few strategically placed battens would improve the kit sails quite a bit.
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