Discussion 10S 10A 300W charger/discharger ( iCharger 1010B+) --206B, 208B release!

[junsi]

Originally Posted by Sisyphus

Please ask her to send pm-have not heard a word. Thanks!

ok, now
I'm so sorry

[junsi]

Originally Posted by Thomanie

How good is the balancer circuitry in the charger? In the specs you posted you state that balance accuracy is "<10mV". Can you please post charger screen output voltage values for a large series lipo (>=6S), and reference measurements taken with an *accurate* voltmeter ?

Originally Posted by Julez

Thomanie made a good point when being curious about the actual balance precision. Recently, some chinese chargers became a little infamous, as the balance precision was less than +/-0,05V. This ruined the reputation in no time

It is important that getting cells’ voltage accurately. How can i get? I think it depends on the calibrate system. Why some fake charger from China can’t work exactly? Because they can copy hardware and CPU software, but can’t copy the calibrate system. They don’t assure the precision of batch. We has the auto calibrate system ourselves, maybe it’s a technique secret. But I will show some pictures of calibrate system tomorrow.

Cheers

[Julez]

Hi Junsi,

I believe the chargers with the unprecise balancing used SMD resistors with 5% tolerance or so as voltage dividers, or something like that.
When your charger uses parts with better tolerance, or can be calibrated to compensate tolerance, this is good.


Another great feature, especially concerning the capability of the iCharger to charge with fairly high currents, would be to take the voltage drop between the AD device of the charger and the actual battery cell into account.
When charging with 10A, the voltage drop between the charger and the battery can be surprisingly high. It depends on the resistance of the 4mm banana plugs on the charging cable, the charging cable itself and the connector between the cable and the battery pack.
It would be great to have a point in the setup menu, where one could enter the resistance of everything between the charger and the battery.
Thus, the charger could accurately correct the voltage it checks with the calculated voltage loss, depending on the resistances as mentioned above and the current.


This would be especially beneficial when being in a high current CV phase, like when charging A123 cells.
I made an experiment with one of my chargers; one time, I used a long cable with a higher resistance, and the other time I used a really short cable. Using the short cable, the charging time was considerably reduced, as the voltage drop was lower, making the charger lower its current when reaching the CV phase later.

Cheers,

Julez

[junsi]

Originally Posted by Julez

Hi Junsi,

I believe the chargers with the unprecise balancing used SMD resistors with 5% tolerance or so as voltage dividers, or something like that.
When your charger uses parts with better tolerance, or can be calibrated to compensate tolerance, this is good.

i'm sorry that I don’t agree to this point. In fact, the imprecise chargers used resistors with 1% tolerance. But you can see: 4.2V*1%=0.04V，is not lower than 10mV. So the most important thing is the software which calibrate system. It can compensate tolerance automatically. In other words, it doesn’t matter if we use a resistor with 5% tolerance, you could see the same results – the tolerance would still lower than 10mV.

Another great feature, especially concerning the capability of the iCharger to charge with fairly high currents, would be to take the voltage drop between the AD device of the charger and the actual battery cell into account.
When charging with 10A, the voltage drop between the charger and the battery can be surprisingly high. It depends on the resistance of the 4mm banana plugs on the charging cable, the charging cable itself and the connector between the cable and the battery pack.
It would be great to have a point in the setup menu, where one could enter the resistance of everything between the charger and the battery.
Thus, the charger could accurately correct the voltage it checks with the calculated voltage loss, depending on the resistances as mentioned above and the current.


This would be especially beneficial when being in a high current CV phase, like when charging A123 cells.
I made an experiment with one of my chargers; one time, I used a long cable with a higher resistance, and the other time I used a really short cable. Using the short cable, the charging time was considerably reduced, as the voltage drop was lower, making the charger lower its current when reaching the CV phase later.

Cheers,

Julez

i agree with you, but in the balance charging mode, the voltage of cells would be detected correctly by balance port. the voltage drop can be ignored since the current passing the balance port is very small.

[thomanie]

I'm no electronics expert, but I think it the others were flawed due to too large tolerances in the components in the balancer circuit, just like Julez say. Changing to lower tolerance parts is the immediate remedy according to reports on the net.

If you have a calibration circuit built into the charger, that's great. But it all depends on the reference voltage being exactly 4.20000, or whatever voltage(s) you actually calibrate to. Is this a one time calibration done in the factory, or a built in circuit in the charger?

Posting the list of charger reported voltages, and reference measurements will immediately tell your (prospective) customers that the charger is a high quality piece of equipment (or worse, not). With accurate voltmeter I am thinking high-dollar Fluke or similar. Being an electronics mfgr you should have access to such

T

[everydayflyer]

m

ade an experiment with one of my chargers; one time, I used a long cable with a higher resistance, and the other time I used a really short cable. Using the short cable, the charging time was considerably reduced, as the voltage drop was lower, making the charger lower its current when reaching the CV phase later.

Cheers,

Julez

I have often pointed this out. Use high quality banana plugs / 4MM Bullet connectors, 14 gage super flex (high stain count) wire and keep leads to 16" or less. If you must use longer leads go to 12 gage wire.

I once saw someone trying to use a triton charger to charge a 1000 mAh 3S LiPoly and he was complaining that it would never go above .3A charge rate. I told him I could fix it real quick. I put a set of my output leads on his charger and it ramped up to 1A with no problem. He was using about 18" of 24 ga. and another 12 or 18" (servo extension) and a servo lead to JST connector with a really cheap set of banana plugs. Poor little charger.

IMO many of the 10A rated chargers need heavier input power leads also. I have seen as much as 0.5V drop from the power source to the chargers PCB.

Charles

[Julez]

So the most important thing is the software which calibrate system. It can compensate tolerance automatically. In other words, it doesn’t matter if we use a resistor with 5% tolerance, you could see the same results – the tolerance would still lower than 10mV.

It is good to hear you have a calibration system. The other unprecise charger lacked it, so accuracy could only be improved when people started to replace the resistors with low tolerance parts.

i agree with you, but in the balance charging mode, the voltage of cells would be detected correctly by balance port. the voltage drop can be ignored since the current passing the balance port is very small.

Good to hear as well, this conveniently eliminates the problem.

I have often pointed this out. Use high quality banana plugs / 4MM Bullet connectors, 14 gage super flex (high stain count) wire and keep leads to 16" or less. If you must use longer leads go to 12 gage wire.

Yes, on my short cable, I have about 10inch of 15gauge.

Cheers,

Julez

[junsi]

Originally Posted by rgh

It's been great watching this thread and seeing experienced enthusiasts giving their feedback and the manufacturer being so open & actioning so many of the suggestions!

I have a few queries about your other Charger - the 106B, I hope it is OK to ask them here.
Is it basically the same architecture as the 1010B?
Any chance of some pics inside a unit?
It looks like 2S-6S packs can plug straight into the side of the 106B - are they JST-XH style plugs which would suit Align/Kokam/Dualsky type balance taps?
Would it be possible to develop an adapter board that plugs into the 6S balance port and could accept 3 X 2S, 2 X 3S, 4S, 5S & 6S balance taps that support ThunderPower/FlightPower/PolyQuest/Hyperion battery packs? A simiar board for JST-XH would make the charger more flexible for many users also. Also, please make sure there is enough space between the sockets on the adapter board so that us people with fat fingers don't have to resort to pulling on the balance leads to remove the packs once they are charged !

Similar boards for the 1010B are needed IMO it would be good to have:
3 X 2S, 3 X 3S, 2 X 4S, 2 X 5S, 6S, 7S, 8S, 9S and a 10S as it is always easier to plug into a board than directly into the side of a Charger. People who DIY 7-10S A123 cells would value being able to source 11pin/10S balance taps for their packs rather than having to use two plugs!

Looking forward to getting my hands on one of these chargers sometime soon!

Hello
First，I’d like to say questions are welcome here.
For you first question, our answer is “YES”, 106B is basically the same architecture as the 1010B.
For your second question, we will publish the internal structure picture of 106B in a few days, actually, its internal structure is basically like 1010B too.
Third, about the JST-XH style plugs for Align/Kokam/Dualsky type balance taps. Actually, we just have our own JST plugs for 1010B.
Right now, we don’t offer any balance port for 106B, we plan to do it next, for this problem, we will make a cable that can connect to kinds of balance port. if you can offer your ideal balance port picture to us, we will highly appreciate it. we will try our best to make practical and convenient conversion board for 106B.
Hope you can give us more advanced suggestions.
Best regards

[kgfly]

junsi - could you please clarify a couple of items from the manual:

Two input power choices: DC jack with the reset table fuse (Max input current 7A and 6A for 106B.) and BWAC (25A)

a) Why two DC inputs, especially when one set of wires is permanently connected ?

b) Does that mean there is a fuse in the 7A input that the user can replace ?

c) What does "BWAC" mean ?

The program of ending beep. Set the final charging, discharging, and
cycling charging/discharging indication sound. Options: Beeps 5 times,
Beep 3 minutes, Beep always, Beep OFF (Beep always, default)

Is the following right ?
"Beeps 5 times" means just five beeps then off
"Beeps 3 minutes" means beep-beep-beep... continuously for 3 minutes then off
"Beep always" means beep-beep-beep... continuously until the user presses Stop

[Julez]

I'm not junsi, but I guess the following:

a) The jack is to be able to conveniently connect a Laptop power supply without having to solder, like this one:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=6256
They mostly have a fitting plug.

b) The fuse is most likely a polyswitch (google).
Auto-resetting fuse would be more appropriate.

Cheers,

Julez

[junsi]

Originally Posted by kgfly

a) Why two DC inputs, especially when one set of wires is permanently connected ?

Julez has reply to u.

b) Does that mean there is a fuse in the 7A input that the user can replace ?

PTC resetable fuse is serially connected in the circuit,under normal circumstances it presents low resistence state and can ensure the normal work of the circuit.In case of occuring short circuit or unsually high current,the heat in the fuse is strong enough to make its impendan- ce increasing to limit current very low,so playing the role for protect- ing the circuit.After fixing the fault,PTC element will automatically return to its low resistance state.

c) What does "BWAC" mean ?

Butt Welded Alligator Clip

Is the following right ?
"Beeps 5 times" means just five beeps then off
"Beeps 3 minutes" means beep-beep-beep... continuously for 3 minutes then off
"Beep always" means beep-beep-beep... continuously until the user presses Stop

You are right!

[kgfly]

Thank you Julez (very insightful) and JunSi (helpful as ever).

a) OK, I see the reasoning now.

b) Always good to learn something new, I was not aware of the PPTC fuses Seems a great idea. Is it only in the 7A pathway or also in the 25A pathway ?

c) I see. I have not seen that acronym before.

d) OK that's clear now

Thank you.

[kgfly]

b) The fuse is most likely a polyswitch (google).
Auto-resetting fuse would be more appropriate.

We have to consider the cost and space tradeoffs when comparing possible solutions to achieving a specific function.
The PPTC seem a pretty smart solution to me. Can you expand on how an auto-resetting fuse is different and why you think it would be more appropriate ?

[junsi]

Originally Posted by kgfly

We have to consider the cost and space tradeoffs when comparing possible solutions to achieving a specific function.
The PPTC seem a pretty smart solution to me. Can you expand on how an auto-resetting fuse is different and why you think it would be more appropriate ?

always

Hello Kenneth
We set the PPTC just to protect the DC jack, because the resistor of DC jack is high,we set the maximum 7A to protect the jack from burning, if the current reach 7A,it can also recover automatically,thus, there is no need to replace it with new one.If you use the common-fuse,it just protect you product from dangers,that is the difference.

[thomanie]

@junsi:

Any luck in getting the voltage measurements from the charger and reference?

T