Discussion 10S 10A 300W charger/discharger ( iCharger 1010B+) --206B, 208B release!

[flarssen]

Originally Posted by Julez

The photo shows the current display in my transmitter: Yellow/Green display color with white backlight.

Cheers,

Julez

Nice Tx! Looks just like mine, except for the backlight and the warning sticker .
If you have any links/info regarding the mods, please send me a PM.

Fred

[junsi]

Originally Posted by Sisyphus

I sent an e mail inquiry about how to buy the smaller one here in the U.S. and got no answer.

How do I buy either of these chargers!

Dear Sisyphus:
I’m very sorry to hear that, but I heard from my fellow worker that she had sent a reply E-mail to a cumstomer from Seattle on Saturday, since Sunday is not our workday, if you haven’t received our reply, I will ask my fellow worker contact you this Monday.

[junsi]

Originally Posted by thomanie

Beef the circuit to handle +300W (9s 5000mah charged at 2C, any large parallel LiFe pack) and you'd sweep the market IMHO.

T

thanks, we have planned that new product with more power should be designed next year, and i'm very glad to collecting more advance suggestions here.

[junsi]

Originally Posted by Julez

Junsi,

wonderful to read this! If the options are implemented as you write, you will soon have a killer product
When manufacturers and hobby people with experience listen to each other, great improvements can be made for the benefits of everyone.

Thanks for your detailled answers.

Cheers,

Julez

Thank you. in fact we published our first version of charger in china for several months, and you can find the thread in the bigest rc forum in our country, we had already modified several functions based on chinese user's suggestions, such as: Li monitor, showing terminal informations, cycling of alter voltage, and so on. we expect more advance, thank you!

[junsi]

Originally Posted by thomanie

The obvious question now is when can we expect to see v2 (1010Bv2,1010C?) with these features in?

T

the function that add the usb must take some times to layout a new PCB, and we also consider that whether the new version would compete with our old version, so we will consider seriously about the date of publishing new version, i'm sorry. but the other modify functions of software could be done in 1 week.

[kgfly]

Interesting link to the Chinese site, thank you.

From the photos in this post I see that there is no strain relief on the input wires. This is something to fix as a quality issue otherwise the input connections are likely to fracture leading to intermittant faults or a complete failure.

Similarly, the fact that the output sockets are not mounted on a panel and hence the solder joint takes all the insertion/removal forces is a worry for similar reasons, perhaps even more so.

Have you done any durability testing on that way of mounting the output connectors ?

[Julez]

I agree on both of kgfly's points. A strain relief is definitely neccessary. At least put like 5cm of shrinking tube around the cables where they leave the casing, and put a zip tie around them at the inside.
The neatest solution would be a high current jack, like on the Pockeltlader PCB in the picture.

The soldering joints on the output sockets can be quite dureble, when done correctly. You can see in my picture, that the whole length of the thread is tinned to provide a long soldering joint. Only the end is tinned on the iCharger. There is room for improvement.
The best solution for a charger with this size would be mounting holes for the output sockets in the PCB. This way, the output sockets would come out from the top of the casing. This position I regard as being more convenient.
An example, how this could look like, is a charger that I built from a kit some time ago. See the images below.

Cheers,

Julez

[Julez]

Now that we have talked about Lixx long enough, I have one suggestion concerning the Nixx cut-off method.
As I understand, the delta-peak method is used by the charger currently.
But there is an improved method, the gradient method.
Let me explain:
When the voltage of the cell reaches its peak in the charging process, it is 100% charged. Ideally, this would be the moment when the charge should be terminated. Unfortunatelly, when using the delta-peak method, the charge needs to continue until the voltage decreases by a sufficient value to trigger the cut-off. Thus, the battery is overcharged, leading to increased temperature, and the lifespan is reduced on the long run.

The gradient method checks the change of the voltage in relation to the time. When the voltage does not change any more, this means that the peak is reached, and the battery is 100% charged. Exactly at this point, the charge is terminated.
Another advantage of the gradient method is, that it is very reliable. Premature cut-offs due to cell noise are very unlikely to happen.

Please see the attached graphs.
Point "3" is where the delta-peak method stops, after overcharging the battery.
Point "2" is where the gradient method stops, when the battery is 100% charged.

Junsi, if you could somehow manage it to incorporate the gradient method in the programming, it would improve the charger again

Cheers,

Julez

[junsi]

Originally Posted by kgfly

Interesting link to the Chinese site, thank you.

From the photos in this post I see that there is no strain relief on the input wires. This is something to fix as a quality issue otherwise the input connections are likely to fracture leading to intermittant faults or a complete failure.

Similarly, the fact that the output sockets are not mounted on a panel and hence the solder joint takes all the insertion/removal forces is a worry for similar reasons, perhaps even more so.

Have you done any durability testing on that way of mounting the output connectors ?

Hello
here we attach four structure pictures of our 1010B-improvement,first for the strain relief, we add a whith plastic ring to the input 14AWG silicone gel-wires , which can protect the imput wires from over-draining.see detail information from picture 1 and picture 2.
For the output socket,actually we fix them into the PCB,which can firm it from the front and the back,the side panel can help to foirm its around, you can see the distance is very narrow,see detail information from the picture 3 and picture 4.
we will strength the joining point as picture 4, the red one is our improvement.
we have done many durability testings for the output connectors,it works well!
Best regards!
JunSi

[junsi]

Originally Posted by Julez

Now that we have talked about Lixx long enough, I have one suggestion concerning the Nixx cut-off method.
As I understand, the delta-peak method is used by the charger currently.
But there is an improved method, the gradient method.
Let me explain:
When the voltage of the cell reaches its peak in the charging process, it is 100% charged. Ideally, this would be the moment when the charge should be terminated. Unfortunatelly, when using the delta-peak method, the charge needs to continue until the voltage decreases by a sufficient value to trigger the cut-off. Thus, the battery is overcharged, leading to increased temperature, and the lifespan is reduced on the long run.

The gradient method checks the change of the voltage in relation to the time. When the voltage does not change any more, this means that the peak is reached, and the battery is 100% charged. Exactly at this point, the charge is terminated.
Another advantage of the gradient method is, that it is very reliable. Premature cut-offs due to cell noise are very unlikely to happen.

Please see the attached graphs.
Point "3" is where the delta-peak method stops, after overcharging the battery.
Point "2" is where the gradient method stops, when the battery is 100% charged.

Junsi, if you could somehow manage it to incorporate the gradient method in the programming, it would improve the charger again

Cheers,

Julez

Julez
You are so warmhearted to give us so many good suggestions. We did consider the gradient method, its really helpful for charging individual cell, thus to save time and avoiding over-charging, but it’s difficult to charge series batteries, for their delta peak are different.
Actually, when using the delta-peak method, you can set the delta V=0, then you can achieve the ideal situation as in the gradient method. However, if you set the deltaV=0,it will ask more accurate value for the AD transfer, and difficult to deal with the cell’s noise when Premature cut-offs. currently ,we can test the 3mV adapt-voltage accurately, if using the gradient method, it will test the voltage lower than 1mV,which makes things complicated and not useful for multi-series battery-charging and avoiding over-charging. Actually, you can set the minimum in the setting program of Delta V(3Mv/cell).
Best regards,
Junsi

[rgh]

It's been great watching this thread and seeing experienced enthusiasts giving their feedback and the manufacturer being so open & actioning so many of the suggestions!

I have a few queries about your other Charger - the 106B, I hope it is OK to ask them here.
Is it basically the same architecture as the 1010B?
Any chance of some pics inside a unit?
It looks like 2S-6S packs can plug straight into the side of the 106B - are they JST-XH style plugs which would suit Align/Kokam/Dualsky type balance taps?
Would it be possible to develop an adapter board that plugs into the 6S balance port and could accept 3 X 2S, 2 X 3S, 4S, 5S & 6S balance taps that support ThunderPower/FlightPower/PolyQuest/Hyperion battery packs? A simiar board for JST-XH would make the charger more flexible for many users also. Also, please make sure there is enough space between the sockets on the adapter board so that us people with fat fingers don't have to resort to pulling on the balance leads to remove the packs once they are charged !

Similar boards for the 1010B are needed IMO it would be good to have:
3 X 2S, 3 X 3S, 2 X 4S, 2 X 5S, 6S, 7S, 8S, 9S and a 10S as it is always easier to plug into a board than directly into the side of a Charger. People who DIY 7-10S A123 cells would value being able to source 11pin/10S balance taps for their packs rather than having to use two plugs!

Looking forward to getting my hands on one of these chargers sometime soon!

[thomanie]

@junsi:

I agree with rgh and julez that you deserve a lot of credit for listening!

Zip-tie strain relief on input wires will probably do for the 1010B, but care should be taken to get this done properly for the chargers still being designed

Julez has a very valid point on the vertical output sockets - they are more mechanically durable than a solder joint. I can partially agree on the estethics of side outputs, but the function *is* more important after all.

How good is the balancer circuitry in the charger? In the specs you posted you state that balance accuracy is "<10mV". Can you please post charger screen output voltage values for a large series lipo (>=6S), and reference measurements taken with an *accurate* voltmeter ?

A list like this is what I hoped to see:

Cell # Chgr RefVM
cell 1: 4.20 4.19(999)
cell 2: 4.19 4.19(254)
...

T

[Julez]

Hello Junsi,

Thanks for your detailled reply. I understand that when dealing with AD conversion, cell noise is a problem when reaching the limits of precision the AD device has to offer.
But what about taking multiple samples and averaging them? For example, if in 10 seconds, the charger took 20 voltage samples, and compared the average of them to the average of the previous 10s-samples? This should increase the precision and reduce the influence of momentary mistakes due to cell noise.

Thomanie made a good point when being curious about the actual balance precision. Recently, some chinese chargers became a little infamous, as the balance precision was less than +/-0,05V. This ruined the reputation in no time

Now one more thing about Lithium chemistry:
I just saw this thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=842091

The cells mentioned here have a max. voltage of 4.3V.
No, I am not asking you to incorporate yet another battery type
But it would be helpful, when in the setup menu, one was able to adjust the actual voltage of the CC/CV charged battery types.
The chargers I have have such an option.
Some people like to charge the LiPos just to 4.15V, some more, some less, it depends a little on the personal opinion of the user.
When having an option to make the voltages for PB, LiFP, LiIo, and LiPo user settable, not only would this be appreciated by individualists, but also this would make your iCharger be up to date for a longer time when a new kind of battery emerges, like the 4.3V LiPo.

Cheers,

Julez

[thomanie]

Originally Posted by Julez

Thomanie made a good point when being curious about the actual balance precision. Recently, some chinese chargers became a little infamous, as the balance precision was less than +/-0,05V. This ruined the reputation in no time

This is also the reason I asked

I see that the listing in my last posting was a little garbled. Sorry about that.

T

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by junsi

Dear Sisyphus:
I’m very sorry to hear that, but I heard from my fellow worker that she had sent a reply E-mail to a cumstomer from Seattle on Saturday, since Sunday is not our workday, if you haven’t received our reply, I will ask my fellow worker contact you this Monday.

Please ask her to send pm-have not heard a word. Thanks!