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Old Apr 15, 2008, 03:32 AM
Registered User
Melbourne, Australia
Joined May 2006
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Essentially I think you are describing a new NiXx program, being a "Forming" or "Balance" charge mode. It's purpose is to safely "form" a new NiXx pack or bring a worn NiXx pack back into balance by using a different algorithm from Delta-Peak which can fail in a new or unbalanced pack. For example the user could choose between "NiXx Charge" (delta peak) and "NiXx Balance" (CCCV).

The new charge profile is:

Inputs = Cell capacity (C) in mAh, number of cells
CC phase = Current at 1C, terminates at 1.5V/cell
CV phase = 1.5V/cell, current drops progressively until C/10 where it is held
Charge terminates when:
a) C/4 total charge added in CV phase -> switch to Trickle mode if it is enabled
b) Safety timer expires
Trickle terminates when:
a) User presses STOP
b) Safety timer expires
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 03:48 AM
Proud to eat Kraut ;-)
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Germany
Joined Dec 2003
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Wonderful!

You just manged to explain everything with fewer words more precisely than I did!
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Thanks for helping out.
Is "forming" really the word for "equalizing Nixx cells"? Formatting is for data, right? I think I got it wrong then.

Concerning the mode names NiCd/NiMH/Nixx:

For delta peak, the names NiCd or NiMH are currently used, as they require slightly different peak values.

For this forming mode, Nixx would work well, as it works for both NiCd and NiMH.

Cheers,

Julez
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 04:50 AM
iCharger
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Joined Mar 2007
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Quote:
CC phase = Current at 1C, terminates at 1.5V/cell
CV phase = 1.5V/cell, current drops progressively until C/10 where it is held
Charge terminates when:
Hello
We accept both of your suggestions. but as this “CC phase = Current at 1C, terminates at 1.5V/cell”,we want to replace it with “CC phase = Current at 1C, terminates at 1.5V/cell, or detect Delta V” .Take a 2S battery for example, if the user set as a 3S or 4S by mistake just under one condition you mentioned, which will results in disastrous loss. However, if add Delta V to this program, which can avoid this. If we change this “CV phase = 1.5V/cell” into “CV phase = 1.4V/cell”, in which the charge voltage hardly reach the Delta V with correct setting, in our opinion, which may prolong the charge time, but safer. What do you think of it?
Thank you!

Regards,
Junsi
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 05:00 AM
One cell short of a Pack
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Good ole Smithsburg, MD
Joined Mar 2007
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Been watching this thread since the beginning and I have to say that if HALF of the recommendations get implemented in this charger it'll be the the best thing since sliced bread!

Then they could make a 500W A123/Lipo charger for the hard core fanatics and take over the world! Of course then we'd all complain that it isn't 750 or 1000 watts

@ Junsi: I have to say, I am impressed with your commitment to listen and heed the desires/opinions and expert advice this "world community" has shared with you! I have never seen a manufacturer take such an interest in trying to produce a product that so many have asked for. Cheers to your efforts, and when the new charger is ready for consumer purchase I be standing at the front of the line!

Also I'd like to say Kudos to Julez, thomanie, kgfly and the rest of your for providing such great input. I wish I could contribute in a more technical way, but you have my enthusiastic support!

Cheers,
Steve
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 05:13 AM
Registered User
Thessaloniki, Greece
Joined Mar 2001
105 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1814
I have never seen a manufacturer take such an interest in trying to produce a product that so many have asked for. Cheers to your efforts, and when the new charger is ready for consumer purchase I be standing at the front of the line!
first appearance at the market today

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idproduct=6609
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 06:12 AM
One cell short of a Pack
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Good ole Smithsburg, MD
Joined Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnikifor
first appearance at the market today

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idproduct=6609

Yes, I saw that yesterday. What is being discussed is what improvements are to be made to the 1010B - When that is finalized and put into production is when I will buy one. But thank you anyway, there may be some people who will want to buy it now.

Cheers,
Steve
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 06:35 AM
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Queens, NY
Joined Mar 2004
530 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1814
Been watching this thread since the beginning and I have to say that if HALF of the recommendations get implemented in this charger it'll be the the best thing since sliced bread!

Then they could make a 500W A123/Lipo charger for the hard core fanatics and take over the world! Of course then we'd all complain that it isn't 750 or 1000 watts

@ Junsi: I have to say, I am impressed with your commitment to listen and heed the desires/opinions and expert advice this "world community" has shared with you! I have never seen a manufacturer take such an interest in trying to produce a product that so many have asked for. Cheers to your efforts, and when the new charger is ready for consumer purchase I be standing at the front of the line!

Also I'd like to say Kudos to Julez, thomanie, kgfly and the rest of your for providing such great input. I wish I could contribute in a more technical way, but you have my enthusiastic support!

Cheers,
Steve
Could not agree more
Fantastic input, down to the earth and professional respond from Junsi
NiXX - they always been pain in the neck
subscribing

ZM
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 06:51 AM
Proud to eat Kraut ;-)
Julez's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2003
5,297 Posts
Hi Junsi!

Quote:
We accept both of your suggestions. but as this “CC phase = Current at 1C, terminates at 1.5V/cell”,we want to replace it with “CC phase = Current at 1C, terminates at 1.5V/cell, or detect Delta V
Now this is a very good suggestion! When everything is correct, this mode will work as expected, and if the user makes a mistake, delta peak will stop. Good!
One more thing to suggest: Terminate also, if 100% of the user set capacity is charged in, and there is neither 1.5V/cell reached, nor the delta peak triggered.

Quote:
If we change this “CV phase = 1.5V/cell” into “CV phase = 1.4V/cell”, in which the charge voltage hardly reach the Delta V with correct setting, in our opinion, which may prolong the charge time, but safer. What do you think of it?
Well, I think 1.4V/cell is definitely too low. 1.45V is about the maximum voltage when the electrodes are saturated, and they start gassing. 1.5V means they stay a little over the gassing voltage, so that a minimum current can flow. Gassing is not dangerous with low currents, as the gas recombines with the electrolyte and gets dissolved at the other electrode fast enough.

The default setting of my Pocketlader is 1.45V, but I found that is a little too low.

At all: Thanks for your support! Junsi really sets a good example. Hopefully, more manufacturers will do the same in the future.
Power to the people
Quote:
What is being discussed is what improvements are to be made to the 1010B - When that is finalized and put into production is when I will buy one.
Me too!

Cheers,

Julez
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 04:32 PM
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Germany
Joined Dec 2003
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Ok, here are my first test results, using the Nixx mode of my Pocketlader.
I found out, that 1,5V/cell is a little high; 1.45V seems to be perfect.
Charge termination at 10%C is a little low; 30%C seems to be better.

So, the program should look like this:

Inputs = Cell capacity (C) in mAh, number of cells

1)CC phase = Current at 1C

terminates at
a) 1.5V/cell,
b) when delta peak is detected, (->go to Forming phase)
c) when 100%C is charged in.(->go to Forming phase)

2) CV phase = 1.45V/cell, current drops progressively until 30%C.

terminates when
a) current has reached 30%C.
b) 100%C is charged in

3)Forming phase
The current is reduced to 10%C.

terminates when
25%C total charge added in Forming phase.
-> switch to Trickle mode if it is enabled

4)Trickle terminates when:
a) User presses STOP
b) Safety timer expires

Cheers,

Julez
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Last edited by Julez; Apr 16, 2008 at 10:53 AM.
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 04:33 PM
<- Balsa flies better ->
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Gustafs, Sweden
Joined Feb 2006
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If all Chinese manufacturers listens to its customers and not like the US/Europe which serve a finished "take it or leave" product they will absolutely rule the market.

The spirit of this thread is very similar to the ASSAN X8 2.4GHz thread, where Mr Meng is listening to suggestions and implements them as the thread moves on.

You could almost believe that Mr Junsu and Mr Meng would be related

Great job, subscribing.

Peter
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 10:38 PM
iCharger
junsi's Avatar
Joined Mar 2007
1,086 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julez
Ok, here are my first test results, using the Nixx mode of my Pocketlader.
I found out, that 1,5V/cell is a little high; 1.45V seems to be perfect.
Charge termination at 10%C is a little low; 30%C seems to be better.

So, the program should look like this:

Inputs = Cell capacity (C) in mAh, number of cells

1)CC phase = Current at 1C

terminates at
a) 1.5V/cell,
b) when delta peak is detected, (->go to Forming phase)
c) when 100%C is charged in.(->go to Forming phase)

2) CV phase = 1.45V/cell, current drops progressively until 30%C.

terminates when
a) current has reached 30%C.
b) 100%C is charged in

3)Forming phase
The current is reduced to 10%C.

terminates when
25%C total charge added in Forming phase.
-> switch to Trickle mode if it is enabled

4)Trickle terminates when:
a) User presses STOP
b) Safety timer expires

Cheers,

Julez
Hello Julze,
Wonderful test!
It’s really nice of you to give us the test results and the test procedure so quickly.
We will add this program to our iCharger series according to what, it will take some time, but we will try our best to fulfill this program.
Besides, we will add the following program:

NiMH BALANCE CHG
1.2Ah 12.0V(10S)
And
NiCd BALANCE CHG
2.0Ah 13.2V(11S)
We are wondering it is proper to name it as “NiCd BALANCE CHG”?

Thank you very much!
Regards,
Junsi



Regards,
Junsi
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Last edited by junsi; Apr 15, 2008 at 10:46 PM.
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 10:48 PM
Registered User
Melbourne, Australia
Joined May 2006
6,407 Posts
Julez,

Is there a typo in your new specification ? In the text you say "I found out, that 1,5V/cell is a little high; 1.45V seems to be perfect." but below that in the program specification you say "terminates at a) 1.5V/cell". Should it be "a) 1.45V/cell" ?
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 11:20 PM
iCharger
junsi's Avatar
Joined Mar 2007
1,086 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgfly
Julez,

Is there a typo in your new specification ? In the text you say "I found out, that 1,5V/cell is a little high; 1.45V seems to be perfect." but below that in the program specification you say "terminates at a) 1.5V/cell". Should it be "a) 1.45V/cell" ?
Hello Kgfly,
In our opinion, "terminates at a) 1.5V/cell" by Julze is Ok,which function as a safty voltage for the charge1/10C and trickle charge,while 1.45V/cell is for CV, which can collide with each other.

Best wishes,
Junsi
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Old Apr 15, 2008, 11:28 PM
PGR
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United States, CA, Costa Mesa
Joined Jun 2004
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An accelerated forming charge will never be as effective as the 0.1C standard. By 0.1C standard, I mean discharging a pack to roughly 0.9-1.0V/cell and then charging it at 0.1C for 18-20 hours.

I build and fly more slope planes than powered planes and many are made of EPP foam covered with multiple layers of strapping tape and iron-on covering. Most of this type of plane have NiMH RX packs imbedded in the foam under the covering so it takes X-Acto Knife surgery to replace 'em if they go bad. Consequently, I've done a comprehensive study of the science of NiMH battery charging and maintenance techniques and did plenty of my own testing and research over the course of the last 5 years.

And without question, I've become a firm believer in forming new packs and packs which have been dormant for an extended period. This wakes up the cell chemistry and balances all the cells in a pack and I'm convinced beyond arguing about it that it can dramatically extend the lifespan of a battery pack provided it isn't otherwise abused.

I've also brought many packs back from the dead by properly forming them and then cycling them a couple of times. I've lost count of the TX and RX packs that my friends gave up on for dead that are still in daily use after I gave 'em the "treatment".

Anyway, an accelerated forming charge is no substitute for a good, uninterrupted, constant-current, 18-20hr. charge at 0.1C. There used to be an excellant white paper in the Sanyo Industrial Batteries website which explains why in rather dry technical terms, but I can't find it anymore.

My opinion is a perfect forming algorithm would simply discharge the pack at around 0.3C to 1.0V X the cell count or until the pack voltage starts to rapidly fall off (to prevent individual low cells from getting deep discharged), take a short rest to let the cells stabilize, and then charge the pack at 0.1C for 20 hours. To start the process shouldn't take any more than entering a cell count and the mAh of the pack and hit START. Battery type (NiMH/NiCd) is unimportant because there is no peak detect involved. Forming cycles for both types are identical.

For standard NiMH & NiCd charge cycles, figure out what the Hobbico AccuCycle Elite uses for an algorithm and copy it. In particular, pay attention to the peak-detect and end game stages. They got it right.

I just don't use anything except one of my AccuCycle Elites for RX and TX packs anymore. Heat is a NiMH pack's arch enemy and as you can well imagine, an RX pack imbedded in foam and covered over with layers of tape and Ultracote don't breathe very well. I always run a piece of pushrod sleeve from the battery pack's core to a convenient place on the plane's exterior so I can slip a bead-type thermocouple into the pack and monitor the temperature until I determine what charger settings will be acceptable for that plane.

I've tried well over a dozen chargers including most of the popular programmable units and the AccuCycle Elite will charge Nixx packs at a higher rate than any of 'em without heating the packs up to the point of concern. This, without a bunch of false peak detects. In fact, they almost never happen, even at a 3mV/cell delta setting.

'Nuff outta me.

Pete

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Last edited by PGR; Apr 15, 2008 at 11:37 PM.
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Old Apr 16, 2008, 12:51 AM
Registered User
Melbourne, Australia
Joined May 2006
6,407 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by junsi
Hello Kgfly,
In our opinion, "terminates at a) 1.5V/cell" by Julze is Ok,which function as a safty voltage for the charge1/10C and trickle charge,while 1.45V/cell is for CV, which can collide with each other.

Best wishes,
Junsi
Ah ha, I see my mistake, thanks.
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