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Old Jan 04, 2013, 06:20 AM
Ricky Windsock
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Great stuff Über. That's the first step on a journey that van be very fulfilling and rewarding. Good luck
Gordon
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rdwoebke View Post
Personally my plan for the 10K goal and return is to launch at A, fly to B which is 10.1 K away, fly back to A and land within a few dozen feet of the launch point. But that's just my plan.

Ryan
Ryan,

NO matter what anyone suggests, and I could not find Jim Deck's post, but I would NEVER sign off on a A to B to A then out to C and back to A as a Goal and return flight. NEVER.

I did the goal and return for V twice and no one I know considers anything but a straight out and back to meet the requirement.

Doing otherwise is a CHEAT.

Chris Adams

Besides if you can't do a 10 km goal and return with the TD planes of today, you are a VERY poor pilot.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 11:12 PM
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Thermaln2,

No one was suggesting what you described (starting in the middle of the course and going to A, then B,and back to the middle again). The discussion was whether or not it was OK to launch from somewhere besides A, fly to A, THEN do the entire goal and return (A to B and back to A again), and then come back to the landing area. It was generally agreed that this would be an odd thing to do since it requires flying farther than the task requires. It doesn't however follow the letter of the law, which says to launch from the starting point.

Scenario: You launch from your field, but your driver is out on the main road because he doesn't want to get his convertible dirty driving on your dusty excuse for a flying field. You walk 100 yards to his car, and begin your goal and return from that location. You then walk back to the landing area and land.

I wouldn't call that cheating, but since you didn't start the task from your launch position, some here would not sign your paper.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 11:23 PM
I'm all about that bass
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Its good to see some action on this thread. Anybody get any task work in recently? I am trying to make plans for my 10K this summer or spring.

Ryan
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 12:14 AM
Ricky Windsock
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Hey Ryan,
We have had two weekends of action here in Florida. Two weeks ago Enrico achieved his 1 hour thermal flight with the trusty Orca and Andy Fox got started on Level 1 with 4 landings and 1 x 5 minute TD flight. Dillon Graves also finally completed his Level three with a half hour TD flight. We did this LSf work at the new Christmas field.
Yesterday we spent the day at ye IRKS field at Cocoa and I completed a Level 4 one hour flight with the SuperAVA and also did a 2 km G&R during the same flight. It was fairly uneventful on a day where the lift could completely disappear for periods long enough to see a model descend from 1800 feet to the ground.
Dillon tried hard to fly for one hour but fell short by 13 minutes. Jody chasing his Level 5 2 hour worked his X2 at specked out altitude for over an hour but finally succumbed to sink at 1 hour 15 mins.
We decided to see if Dillon could get his 2 km G&R and he flew his X2 in a thermal with the wind all the way from the start of the course to the 2 km end. The return trip was a constantly descending. With 500 meters to go he was at about 150 feet and with 100 m to go he was down to 20 feet . He valiantly tried to reach the road which marked out start of the course but the road is about 1.5meters above the rest of the field and he found the model touching down just 6 feet from the road. So close! To fly 4km and fall short by 6 feer was extremely disappointing but I must say Dillon has grown up a lit and this 14 year old is now experienced at cross country and will get it next time. Though it was a fail as a 2 km G&R we all had a lot of fun.
Gordon
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 12:33 AM
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GliderJim,

What I seemed to read implied that the A to B To A to C to A thing, had A positioned so that it was like within the span of the end to end of the 10 km goal. So a to be might be for example 2 km, and then a to c was 8 km. As you state, the distance would start where you got into the car and be a straight line total distance of 10 km. Landing at the same spot you launched because you have to walk back to it, is not uncommon. So it that case, I think we both agree. The implied action of the first sentence could mean that you can have the same air many more times than twice (going and coming back). If like in the first sentence and the thermal was at A then you could use the same thermal 4 times, twice on each side. The100 m walk would not be cheating, but an added distance, that is acceptable. The designers of the original LSF tasks flew it that way when I was present. The task is out and back and then land where you launched, it does not say you can't fly a greater distance and not be signed off. In actuality, it is the plane that has to make the distance, not the pilot.

Chris
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 08:04 AM
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I agree Chris.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 09:12 AM
I'm all about that bass
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You Floridians are such overachievers. Great work Gordon and gang and thanks for sharing.

Ryan
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaln2 View Post
NO matter what anyone suggests, and I could not find Jim Deck's post...
Here is Jim Deck's post. What he said in essence is that this is the way to do a goal & return flight:



First you predesignate a goal somewhere on the circle, which has a radius equal to R and is centered on your launch point. Then you launch, fly over the launch point, fly to the goal, and then back to the launch point. That means that this would be a legal goal & return flight:



Two posts later, Jim Thomas purported to "add" to Jim Deck's post by claiming that the following would be a legal goal & return flight:



This is where the controversy lies. Here's what the LSF SAP says, so judge for yourself:
Quote:
Section 10 - Goal and Return Flight

A goal and return flight is a thermal duration flight which commences with a launch as specified in Section 7. After towline release, the sailplane must be flown over the launch point and then to a pre-designated goal a minimum straight line distance away, as specified in the Soaring Accomplishments Program, Requirements summary, Section 12, and back to the launch point.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 02:23 PM
I'm all about that bass
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Nice use of drawings, Mike.

Ryan
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 04:56 PM
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Here we go again. Since you folks are locked into a letter of the law discussion I have some questions for you. There are some practical aspects that have to be considered, so I'd like to know how real situational concerns factor into this theoretical discussion.

1. Where exactly is the launch point? Is it at the exact point that you release the plane from your hand (at the winch), is it at the turnaround, or is it at some unspecified point between the winch and turnaround where the glider comes off the towline, ie the launch phase of the flight is complete? If you choose one of these for convenience, why would launching, flying to a designated course entry point be any different?

2. How do you interpret the letter of the rules in terms of flying off the direct, minimum straightline distance? Does following a thermal to the right or left negate the flight? Does a flight course that is off the direct minimum straight line distance negate the flight? Or is the interpretation that the car has to drive a straight line and the plane doesn't matter?

JT
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 11:10 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtlsf5 View Post
1. Where exactly is the launch point? Is it at the exact point that you release the plane from your hand (at the winch), is it at the turnaround, or is it at some unspecified point between the winch and turnaround where the glider comes off the towline, ie the launch phase of the flight is complete?
I'm aware that the SAP is not clear on that, so I would choose a goal that exceeds the required distance no matter how it's measured. The difference won't amount to much anyway.
Quote:
2. How do you interpret the letter of the rules in terms of flying off the direct, minimum straightline distance? Does following a thermal to the right or left negate the flight? Does a flight course that is off the direct minimum straight line distance negate the flight? Or is the interpretation that the car has to drive a straight line and the plane doesn't matter?
The rule concerns the location of the pre-designated goal, not the path of the flight. When choosing a goal that's the required distance, you can legally use a method such as the ruler function of Google Earth to pick out a goal that's at least the minimum straight-line distance from the launch point. The distance is reckoned "as the crow flies", not by the mileage you read on your odometer when you drive there. Once the goal is located and chosen, you can fly any path you like to get there and return.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike View Post
I'm aware that the SAP is not clear on that, so I would choose a goal that exceeds the required distance no matter how it's measured. The difference won't amount to much anyway.The rule concerns the location of the pre-designated goal, not the path of the flight. When choosing a goal that's the required distance, you can legally use a method such as the ruler function of Google Earth to pick out a goal that's at least the minimum straight-line distance from the launch point. The distance is reckoned "as the crow flies", not by the mileage you read on your odometer when you drive there. Once the goal is located and chosen, you can fly any path you like to get there and return.
It kind of sounds like you're saying the same thing I did. You can tailor the specific course layout to the reality of your flying site as long as the sailplane's flight course origin and goal point meet the minimum G/R distance requirements. Bottom line here, and what LSF's interpretation (at least in my 30+ years of LSF participation and 4 on the board) has been that its about the flight adhering to the intent of the rules.

Interesting comment about Google Earth, as far as I know this didn't exist when LSF and the SAP was formed, so how could a rigid interpretation of the SAP G/R include the use of something non-existent at that time? Oh yeah, another interpretation that modern tools/techniques are acceptable.

My suggestion is to go do it in the air, not at the keyboard.

JT
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 08:15 AM
Ricky Windsock
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The wording used 40 years ago was without the experience, knowledge and technology we have today. Quite clearly the intent of the cross country program is to (a) select a starting point and a goal point the required distance apart and (b) launch and fly your glider from the starting point to the goal and back to the starting point and then (c) finally land within the required distance from the launch point.
There is no practical reason that the original designers of the program (or any other person since) would require the "launch point" to be the ONLY place to begin the course. Clearly the method depicted beautifully by Miami Mike with his drawing achieves ALL that a Goal and Return is intended to be with the ADDED DIFFICULTY of having to fly even further.
Why would any other fair minded person consider such a flight to be less than adequate when it requires MORE?

On another note we lost one of soarings finest last week as Stan Pfost passed away in Orlando. Stan was a founding member of the Orlando Buzzards and originally owned the field we flew on for many years. Stan completed his Level 5 tasks except for the 8 hour back in the 70's and gave me his Level 5 sheet a few months ago to write a story about he and other Florida locals as we prepared to get them to the Pompano Hill this year to finish their Level 5 journey. Sadly for soaring this is not to be as Stan is no longer with us. He will be missed by the modeling community a lot and we we feel for his family and friends.
Let's get out and fly some more LSF Tasks.
Gordon
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 09:21 AM
I'm all about that bass
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Originally Posted by jtlsf5 View Post
Here we go again.
Within reason I'm of the mindset that any publicity is good publicity. So even a bit of going back and forth on this hopefully will add a tickle in more folks brains to get them into the program now or some day in the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jtlsf5 View Post
1. Where exactly is the launch point? Is it at the exact point that you release the plane from your hand (at the winch), is it at the turnaround, or is it at some unspecified point between the winch and turnaround where the glider comes off the towline, ie the launch phase of the flight is complete?
Since other parts of the program define release point from towline in the phrase release from towline (as when the timing starts for duration flights) I would say that eliminates this from being the launch point. My read on the rules is that launch point is when you release the plane from the ground/your hand. That is just my personal read, I'm not an official of the LSF, I was a C student, disclaimer disclaimer.

Ryan
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