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Old Jan 04, 2012, 08:59 PM
North Simcoe Flyers
rcwings's Avatar
Midland, Ontario, Canada
Joined May 2007
806 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zor View Post
M _ _ _

I much appreciate your posting.
Fillets do not have to be large and exagerated.
A fillet radius and the spread should not exceed the size or thickness of the pieces being glued.

A proper fit is of course the first necessity for a well glued joint but a proper fit still leaves only a small percentage of the area supposedly in contact; that means that the glue must have enough cured material to fill the no real contact area. Applied pressure when possible helps to increase the real contact area but it never is full contact.

As an experiment, I often placed a drop of glue on a clean metal surface (minimum or no penetration) and watched the amount of material remaining after cure (solidifying) has taken place. It is very interesting.

It is also a good way of checking the hardness of the cured glue, its ability to absorb shocks and its sanding characteristic. A good glue should remain with some elasticity. If it is too brittle it will break and often take some of the penetrated wood with it.

The best judgment of a glue ability to glue is to observe the amount of damages following a bad crash. We have lots of example to see at the flying field or from posted pictures in the forum.

As a last comment _ _ _ after 25 years I am convinced that you have often seen crashes results.

I never forgot the fellow who reported stripping his ARF to change the color scheme and found out that the covering was basically holding the wood together .

I surely was not the one having written that.

The weight of the glue in a well glued model is between 1% and 2% _ _ _ and I often see people awfully worried about too much glue weight? There is much better ways of saving weight than save a fraction of 1% or 2% of the total weight of the model.

Last comment _ _ _ fit the joins best we can, do not put too much pressure and squeeze out most of the glue, do not move the joints while the glue is curing, make sure there is a properly sized fillet to spread the grabbng area, enjoy minimum repairs needed in a badluck landing.

Cheers,

Zor

P.S.: Sure "every bit counts" and then fellows overpower their model with larger engines, are wishing for straight up vertical climbs and will try to avoid an extra bit of glue ?
It just does not add up in my mind.
Boy you really have a knack for ticking people off Zor! I am starting to understand now why you have been asked to leave other threads or even to the point of being banned. You have just taken the wind out of my sails on this thread.

bunkai, pablojaime,

Good luck with your builds...maybe catch you on another thread someday soon. Looks like you will have all the support you need from Zor.

Marko
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 09:26 PM
Fueled by Arabica Beans
ChillPhatCat's Avatar
United States, NY, Syracuse
Joined Oct 2008
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I know you made the comments over 2 years ago Zor, but I've put over 100 flights on CA hinges on a single nitro plane and never had a failure. Plastics do fatigue, but not on any scale that you would see in regular use on an R/C plane. In a vast majority of cases it will be time to retire the plane before a failure occurs. I started using CA hinges in 1992 and stand confidently by them for anything up to a .60 size model.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 02:21 AM
Zor
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Ontario,Canada
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwings View Post
Boy you really have a knack for ticking people off Zor! I am starting to understand now why you have been asked to leave other threads or even to the point of being banned. You have just taken the wind out of my sails on this thread.

bunkai, pablojaime,

Good luck with your builds...maybe catch you on another thread someday soon. Looks like you will have all the support you need from Zor.

Marko
Marko (aka rcwings),

What is your problem?
When there is a will there is a way (a solution).

Perhaps we can solve whatever incited your comments.
In my postings I only discuss or refer to subjects that pertain to our activities as modelers or builders and model airplane pilots.

I keep out of commenting on people characters unless it is essential in self defense. There is always one or two who cannot stand good logic or discussions based on experience or experimentation. They behave like blabber mouths.

I am not aware that I did or posted anything to hurt your feelings. Please point to any such action on my part so that I could profusely apologize.

I only talked about some of my experience and often urge the modelers to do things their own way based on their own evaluation of what they read in the postings.

I am anxiously awaiting your statement(s) of what I did or wrote that was wrong and "ticked you off".

We can then return to the main topics discussed in this thread.

Incidentally _ _ _ did you fly on skis?
Did you get that 40 cm of snow you mentioned?

I used to fly quite a bit in winter times.
I am now too old for that kind of acivity so I stay in comfort and build. I hope to have my Spectra sailplane ready for experimental flights this coming spring if I can still see and move well enough.

I talk about my method of gluing. Anyone can use their preferred method.

Hinge wise I like the control surfaces hinged such that they fall to their full mechanical travel of their own weight.
Servo torque on my point of view should be used for working aerodynamic forces, not to bend plastic.

I cover my models with fabric having typically 80 threads per inch such that each thread need considerable force to break under tension and each thread is glued to the model structure reinforcing the structure. Anyone can cover their own preferred way.

The above illustrate some of my ways and I do not tell people what to do. I only tell what I do and give reasons why I think my way.

What is wrong with that?

I wish you again all the best for the New Year.
It is up to you if you wish to respond; while I do not always agree with what I read in the forum, I always respect others point of view.

Zor
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 11:58 AM
Zor
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Ontario,Canada
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChillPhatCat View Post
I know you made the comments over 2 years ago Zor, but I've put over 100 flights on CA hinges on a single nitro plane and never had a failure. Plastics do fatigue, but not on any scale that you would see in regular use on an R/C plane. In a vast majority of cases it will be time to retire the plane before a failure occurs. I started using CA hinges in 1992 and stand confidently by them for anything up to a .60 size model.
ChillPhatCat,

If I read you properly, you are talking about CA hinges failures; actually "lack of failure".

You seem to inform that CA hinges do not fail or seldom fail even with 100 flights (or more).

I agree with you. I do not believe I ever referred to CA hinge failures. I do not use CA hinges but not because I am afraid they may fail (break or tear).

I have other reasons to keep away from them but will not elaborate here about my reasons at this moment.

I understand why many builders use them and why some kit suppliers supply them.

Enjoy your CA hinges.

Zor
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 12:09 PM
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Israel, Ashdod
Joined Dec 2009
376 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zor View Post
ChillPhatCat,

If I read you properly, you are talking about CA hinges failures; actually "lack of failure".

You seem to inform that CA hinges do not fail or seldom fail even with 100 flights (or more).

I agree with you. I do not believe I ever referred to CA hinge failures. I do not use CA hinges but not because I am afraid they may fail (break or tear).

I have other reasons to keep away from them but will not elaborate here about my reasons at this moment.

I understand why many builders use them and why some kit suppliers supply them.

Enjoy your CA hinges.

Zor
Hi, 3 years a go i buil a GP Mustang Kit with CA hinges, and after two years of flying, two hinges crack, when i found that i check the other hinges and were ok, but i changed all with new hinges.
the hinges were those that came with the kit.
btw i'm still using CA hinges, but even before i read Zor posts, i already was thinking in change to nylon hinges for the RV-4 Kit.
Have Fun!!!

Pablo.
From Terra Sancta.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 12:31 PM
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Canada, MB, Winnipeg
Joined Dec 2011
116 Posts
Hey Marko,

Progress has slowed down as I'm back to work but intend on getting more done this weekend. I'm at the point of putting the sheeting on the top leading edge on the left wing.

Rob
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 04:36 PM
Zor
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Ontario,Canada
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pablojaime View Post
Hi, 3 years a go i buil a GP Mustang Kit with CA hinges, and after two years of flying, two hinges crack, when i found that i check the other hinges and were ok, but i changed all with new hinges.
the hinges were those that came with the kit.
btw i'm still using CA hinges, but even before i read Zor posts, i already was thinking in change to nylon hinges for the RV-4 Kit.
Have Fun!!!

Pablo.
From Terra Sancta.
Hello Pablo,

This post may be interesting to all readers.
I will try to keep it short but have to cover my subject.

I have no objection whatsoever about anyone using CA hinges. I just hope they have their own good reasons to use them.

I will now try to explain why I do not use them.
Any reader can evaluate my reasoning.

1- I believe that plastics of any kind do not have the resiliency (look up the meaning of resiliency) as we know of for example in metal springs as used in internal combustion engines to bring the valves back to their closed position. The molecules in plastics eventually suffer from "fatigue" which I understand as meaning "loosing their relative positions which is a property of elasticity. Sooner or later they fracture.

2- Pinned hinges like a piano hinge (continuous hinge) or Dubro pinned hinges do not have any bending plastic. The rotation takes place nearly free of any opposing bending force. The slight friction existing between the pins and the plastic can be lubricated in a normal way. I periodically use vaseline for that purpose.
A similar situation for Robarts hinges which have a tiny rivet instead of a pin.

3- I like to minimize any gap between the control surface and its support such as a wing spar or a stabilizer or fin trailing edge spar. By notching the fin/stab trailing and leading edges and the fin/rudder (similarly) I can bring this gap to nearly zero; just not touching.
I do not know how to do that with CA hinges. They need some length of material to be able to bend up to 60 degrees and even more.
If notching is used with CA hinges, we then do not have a single point (line) of rotation. We may have some potential movement at 90 degrees somewhat equivalent to slop with the result of fluttering.
The following exageration to help understanding what I am saying. Imagine a 1/4" gap betwen the stab and elev with nothing in between than some cloth (cotton or whatever). The elevator would be like a flag waving in the breeze.

4- The shorter the length of the CA hinge allowed to flex (bend) then the more opposition to bending and the more torques needed by the servo which means more electric current usage and shorter battery life feeding the servos.
Also a shorter life for the CA hinge.

5- It is not a matter of cost. I think the cost difference to us is quite negligeable. It may be appreciable for a high volume kit assembler. The people putting kits together for resale.

6- There is not much difference making slots for pinned hinges versus slots for CA hinges. Drilling holes for Robarts hinges is even simpler and easier.

Conclusion

At least I am not leaving the readers wondering about my point of view.

Whether someone agrees or disagree is not the purpose here. As I always promulgate, anyone is free to do or use whatever makes them comfortable and I am not criticizing their choice or reasons.

All I do is present my way for anyone's evaluation.
No one should be hurt or frustrated because I sometime do things diffferently.

I hope I have made my point of view clearly.

Enjoy the hobby your own way.

Back to work on my Spectra sailplane.

Cheers

Zor
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 09:20 AM
Registered User
Canada, MB, Winnipeg
Joined Dec 2011
116 Posts
Hey Zor,

Appreciate any input whatsoever. For someone new to the hobby receiving information, of any kind, is a good thing, it's all part of the learning process. Obviously this hobby has it's challenges and so many options and directions someone can take. Especially comments from folks that have been doing this for a long time, it's all helpful. At the end of the day we take what we learn and apply it in a way that's comfortable for us and where we might be with the hobby. This particular kit provides a sheet from which you'd cut your CA hinges from. I decided to get CA hinges from my LHS as this type of hinge is what the kit manufacturer recommends. In the future I may try other methods.

Rob
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 09:30 AM
Registered User
Canada, MB, Winnipeg
Joined Dec 2011
116 Posts
I'm at the point where I should start thinking about which radio I should get. right now I"m thinking of the DX6i. I plan on doing flaps and will be using 7 servos. I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks,
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 10:09 AM
North Simcoe Flyers
rcwings's Avatar
Midland, Ontario, Canada
Joined May 2007
806 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunkai View Post
I'm at the point where I should start thinking about which radio I should get. right now I"m thinking of the DX6i. I plan on doing flaps and will be using 7 servos. I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks,
Rob,

The DX6i is a good radio, and you definitely want to start with at least 6 channels. I am partial to Futaba, but that is my preference. If you have never used an RC radio, you want the programming to be pretty easy, but still have some flexibility to grow. Also whatever is readily available to you at the LHS is a good choice. Some options may be:

Spectrum DX6i, DX7
Futaba 6EX, 7C
Hitec Optic 6
Airtronics SD6G or RDS8000

As you step in radios like say as an example Futaba 8FG Super (what I use), or a JR 9503 it will give you unlimited programming capabilities and channels, but for someone new to the hobby it may be a little overwhelming to program. Some of the ones I mention above have a wide range of features, yet are relatively easy to program. Also pick something that other club members may have as they can assist you at the field in programming. Also check what brands the Instructors use, as you want to ensure you can use the buddy cord until you are ready to solo. Typically you cannot mix brands on the buddy box system. You may want to handle the radio before you buy, as "feel" is an important factor.....at least to me it is. If you stick to the above names, you should have a trouble free radio experience for the most part. There will be those that insist one is better than the other...but you should be good with any of them in my opinion.

Do a little research on each and check out the features. Some may be important to you and others not so.

Hope that helps.
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 10:17 AM
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Israel, Ashdod
Joined Dec 2009
376 Posts
Hi Bunkai
I have a Airtronics RDS8000 (8 Channels) and i'm very happy with it.
anyway... how much channels depends how much you intend to advance in the hobby, meaning that with time you probably want to add to another kit or arf beside flaps maybe retractable landing gear, or other features.
if now the budget is the issue you can go to 6 channels (flaps and ailerons with Y cable and maybe reverse servo) or 7 channels (flaps different channel each servo and aileron Y cable, or aileron diff channel and flaps Y cable).
it's up to you and your wallet..
in my personal opinion i prefer to buy a 8 channel (more expensive) but one that i know i can use with more sophisticated planes in the future...
for example with the RV-4 my 8 channel RX will be with only 1 Channel free:
Aileron X2 channels (can trim each aileron without touching the other)
Flaps X2 channels (same as ailerons)
Throttle X1
Elevator X1
Rudder X1

Have Fun!!!

Pablo
From Terra Sancta.
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 10:26 AM
North Simcoe Flyers
rcwings's Avatar
Midland, Ontario, Canada
Joined May 2007
806 Posts
Forgot to mention: In order to get 7 servos connected to a 6 channel receiver, you will need a Y-cable for the Ailerons or flaps (two servos connected to one port on receiver). This works good for the most part, but does limit you on adjusting electronically each servo. If you need more flexibility, then you will need to move up to a 7 channel radio with 7 channel receiver that will allow you to "pair" up (lack of better word) receiver channels to use a transmitter output like aileron stick, but still allow individual control of each servo like "end point adjustment" and "differential".

You could even get away with a 5 channel receiver, but then you will need to use two y-cables (one for aileron servos and one for flap servos). This would be the simplest setup.
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 10:53 AM
North Simcoe Flyers
rcwings's Avatar
Midland, Ontario, Canada
Joined May 2007
806 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pablojaime View Post
Hi Bunkai
I have a Airtronics RDS8000 (8 Channels) and i'm very happy with it.
anyway... how much channels depends how much you intend to advance in the hobby, meaning that with time you probably want to add to another kit or arf beside flaps maybe retractable landing gear, or other features.
if now the budget is the issue you can go to 6 channels (flaps and ailerons with Y cable and maybe reverse servo) or 7 channels (flaps different channel each servo and aileron Y cable, or aileron diff channel and flaps Y cable).
it's up to you and your wallet..
in my personal opinion i prefer to buy a 8 channel (more expensive) but one that i know i can use with more sophisticated planes in the future...
for example with the RV-4 my 8 channel RX will be with only 1 Channel free:
Aileron X2 channels (can trim each aileron without touching the other)
Flaps X2 channels (same as ailerons)
Throttle X1
Elevator X1
Rudder X1

Have Fun!!!

Pablo
From Terra Sancta.

Agree with Pablo that budget is a contributing factor and where you plan on being in this hobby in the next couple years. Go with the best you can afford. The only thing I want to caution you on is not to get something that will over complicate things for you at this stage. Kinda like trying to fly a 747, when you have never flown a plane yet....all those buttons and switches can get overwhelming. A radio can be pretty much the same. Too many times I see guys out at the field, and they are struggling to program the simplest things because the radio features are far too advanced for them......................I know this as am usually the guy they come to for help.
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 12:13 PM
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Canada, MB, Winnipeg
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thanks guys you've given me more homework to do Good info all of it. I think I'll concentrate on looking at a 7 channel just to eliminate all the Y's etc. and have the ability to trim individually. Now it's time to do some more work on that left wing.

Thanks

Rob
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 02:10 PM
Zor
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Originally Posted by bunkai View Post
thanks guys you've given me more homework to do Good info all of it. I think I'll concentrate on looking at a 7 channel just to eliminate all the Y's etc. and have the ability to trim individually. Now it's time to do some more work on that left wing.

Thanks

Rob
Rob,

A wise decision,

Entry level these days for a radio system is 7 and even preferably an 8 channel radio.

I have a DX5e which I use only on the Phoenix flight simulator.

I also have a JR XP7202 which is 7 channels and synthesized on the 72 Mhz band.

I also have a DX7 which is also 7 channels and use the same basic programming as the 7202. Both have 6 mixes and 20 memories.

My next radio will have 10 or more proportional channels as I am designing a Piper Twin Comanche 1/4 scale in which I will want retracts, individual throttles, nav and landing lights. See my avatar. I used to fly one of those for a while as a corporate pilot.

Hey _ _ _ I am just having fun in any leisure time I have.

Zor
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Last edited by Zor; Jan 07, 2012 at 02:19 PM. Reason: My poor grammer
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