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Old Mar 05, 2008, 05:20 PM
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Holden , Massachusettes
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Got 4 planes ready to fly for this Saturday. Two ezb's 1 at about 5 grams and one at 3. Also got a penny plane which was mostly made by someone else, a real expert at this stuff (the thing came in at 3.14 grams, unbelievable). I did most of the actual cutting but the brain work was all my friends doing. Also got the A6 ready to hit the skies, or rather, the ceiling. Got some expert help in making a box to transport the planes, using foam glued in with a hot glue gun. Think the glue gun uses the same stuff we use to make repairs in the bottoms of snow skis. Anyway it works great. Had enough room for all 4 planes. Was told I could even add a handle and carry it, that way. I sure hope so, hate to see all those planes smashed up, before I even get to the flying site.

erich
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Old Mar 07, 2008, 04:28 AM
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Tube Making?

Looking ahead in Ron's bible...I see that ezb #4 is a biplane. However I like the looks of his penny biplane (page 93), a little better. Like that both wings having the same dihedral, and the dropped tail is kinda cool too. Was going to take a shot at making this plane, but instead of making a rolled tube for the motor stick, which the plans call for, had decided to just use a plain rectangular motor stick, like all the planes to now. But then, reading over the rolled tube building sequence, made me want to give it a shot. Located a 5/16 music wire joiner rod (From a XC glider) to use as forward tube mandrel. Had some tapered hardwood dowels from the remnants of a 30 year old ship model (the masts I guess). Took a plane to the dowel and tapered it from a little less then 5/16" at forward end, to 1/8" at tail end. Sanded it as smooth as I could using 600 grit paper. So now.....using some 1/32" balsa, will give tube making a go. Reading about the rolling proccess, makes me pretty sure, this.... is going to be a minor disaster.

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Old Mar 07, 2008, 06:31 AM
slow but inefficient
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Riverhead NY USA
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erich, you are doing great. You have the perfect attitude for succeeding in indoor.

Try to find out what you can about Ray Harlan and flying in the Boston area.

One of the exercises that drove me nuts was gluing two pieces of bond paper together edge to edge. When I finally did it it drove my friends even crazier when they saw it. It's the perfect introduction to gluing the seam on a fuselage tube.
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Old Mar 07, 2008, 07:41 AM
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Ron

Ray Harlan is the gentleman, whole helped me build the penny plane. Was over at his house (machine shop), and got a real education on building to perfection. Hope some of it sank in. Was greatly impressed with the motor bearing he invented. Not to mention his rubber stripper, balsa stripper, and wire insulation bushings. He also showed me a .5 gram ezb, it glided so slow, in his living room, I swear it was going backwards. Was a real treat to see his operation.

He's flying this Saturday at a little place called MIT. Have the driving, directions, and the planes, so hope to fly there, tomorrow.

The attitude is mostly stubbornness. Thanks for the encouragement.

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Old Mar 07, 2008, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erich
So now.....using some 1/32" balsa, will give tube making a go. Reading about the rolling proccess, makes me pretty sure, this.... is going to be a minor disaster.

erich
If you are using C grain (what you need to make a proper rolled tube for indoor) 1/32" is pretty darn thick to roll successfully. You will need to soak the crap out of it to keep it from splitting.

If you have not already, you will want to go to my site Indoor Duration and on the articles page read the one titled "Making Rolled Motor Tubes by Steve Brown from Indoor News and Views" and probably "Making Rolled Tail Booms by Steve Brown from Indoor News and Views" as well. They are about 5 down from the top of the page. Steve no longer splits the brace post on the motor stick, but instead glues it on the side of the boron. But other than that it is a tremendous article from one of only 2 fliers to break an hour in a single flight.

Tim
A2Z Corp
Peck Polymers, Indoor Model Supply, Sting Aero divisions
1530 W Tufts Ave Unit B
Englewood CO 80110

www.Peck-Polymers.com/store

The worlds best flying laser cut peanuts.
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Old Mar 07, 2008, 10:04 AM
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Tim

Am sure your right about 1/32 being too thick. The thing is am at the point in this pastime when I'm mostly trying to aquire the skills needed to make these great toys. So am working on assembly skills right now, and believe that I will have better luck if I don't try to push the weight limit just yet. Gotta learn to stand before running. So...right now am just using what materials I got on hand from many years of RC glider building. Hopefully won't be long before I get some really good wood, and even learn to tell the differnece between the grades (4#, 5#) and the cuts (C grain etc). I believe what I have is C grain. Got the 1/32, stuff from an old and defunct Dodgson Pivot kit . Before that I was actually using 1/16" stock, and doing a LOT of sanding. Shoulda had your mask, for that. Anywho, right now competion isn't even on my radar screen. Getting a plane to make more than 1 circle will make me real happy. Heck even flying more then 15' without hitting a wall, would curl my socks.

Thanks again for the interest. Will most definitely be getting some of your, great wood, soon.


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Old Mar 07, 2008, 12:15 PM
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Da tubes!!!

No one is more stunned then myself. The tubes came out OK.... even the tapered one??? It may be true... God watches over fools and Democrats!

Using some heavy silkspan, it's all I have right now. Cut the silkspan, 4x wider then the balsa blank, which was cut to equal circumference of form plus a tiny bit extra to allow for shrinkage (all according to the book). Soaked balsa blank in hot water for about 8 min. Using the fingers squeegeed out as much water as possible then rolled it between the silkspan and music wire form. To my surprise and delight it rolled up neatly, just as da book said it would. Put some masking tape along joint line, and baked at 250 for about 15 min. After cooling off, unwrapped the tissue and to my amazement the rolled wood tube just popped off the music wire...intact. The gap in the tube is very small and should be fairly easy to glue (well... maybe not).

Had intended to enjoy this small victory awhile before gluing tube. But couldn't wait, and gave it a shot. Used full strength Ambroid (probably should of used it diluted with acetone). Glued an inch at a time, putting small pieces of masking tape to hold glued sections together, as I went along. Got lucky again, IT WORKED! Even managed to glue up the tapered rear tube, which was just a little more difficult. Ended up with 2 fine looking tubes (at least to my eyes).

Did make, at least, one mistake. The book had called for sanding down the 1/32" stock to .025", which in my hurry to give this a try, I forgot to do. Still it seems pretty light to me. Not sure how accurate my scale is at these lower weights, forward tube after gluing weighs .5 gr. It most definitely looks better then the squared motor sticks I been making.

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Old Mar 07, 2008, 03:09 PM
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You're one up on me now Erich. I never tried to roll the full on 1/32 thick wood. All my rolled sticks were for microfilm jobs that I knew would be using very small rubber so I used to make the motor tube from around .012 and the boom was rolled on a tapered steel form I borrowed from another older modeler (I wasn in my teens at the time and could not afford such nice toys... ) to roll the tail boom. The wood for that being in the order of .010 tapering to .006 or .008 at the tail. I do remember that it was like sanding writing paper as I oh so carefully rubbed the sanding block over that blank to taper the wood.
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Old Mar 07, 2008, 08:04 PM
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My hats off to ya BMatt. I just tried making a tube out of 1/32 sanded down to about .020. Got as far as rolling it. Then, just barely got it off the jig, in one piece. But my attempt to glue it together was total disaster. Just could not get the 2 edges to line up evenly. Ended up with a pile of soggy wood and glued hands. So making a tube out of .010 stuff has got to be twice the challenge. Making you....... 2 up on me.

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Old Mar 08, 2008, 12:56 AM
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Well, like most things to do with indoor and super light stuff there's a trick to it. I used to remove the tube and tissue after it dried and pull out the tissue. Then you put the tube back on the form with about 1/2 inch hanging off one end and glue that and hold it. The thinned Ambroid dries in about a minute and you just tack glue first. Then pull off another 1/2 inch and tack glue that. And so on.... It helps to be watching a good TV program while you're doing that. Once it's all off and all tacked you can fill in between the tackings with some glue from the syringe and hypo needle and it'll wick into the joint like thin CA

VOILA! A nice tube with an OK if not perfect glue joint.

I can't remember what I did with the tapered boom.
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Old Mar 08, 2008, 03:20 AM
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TACK glue it....no wonder you Canadians won the war. So you cheat by putting it back on the form and just glue the small portion overhanging on one side. Like a crazed plane builder I been doing it freehand. Glad you came to my rescue, have now, managed to waste 3 more tubes. Am rapidly running out of 1/32" stock. Soon as I get the one tube I got left finished up will give your way a go. Need to recover some confidence before trying to glue up another tube.

Thanks

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Old Mar 08, 2008, 07:44 AM
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Riverhead NY USA
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Bmatt's right on. Have you been waxing the forms? Holding a waxed form over heat will even out the wax and you can tack glue the tapered tube right on the form. Free handing is alright if you make sure no warps creep in. Working in the humid summer weather with sweaty hands can make freehanding a tube a real trial; the result can be very light, hollow balsa pretzels.

Tapering wing tip balsa and tube sheet is a sophistication I avoided in the interest of sturdiness in competition situations. The flyers who went too far with that sort of extreme structure seldom made it through a meet with all their planes. Sturdiness? On an indoor plane? I guess it's all relative. Check out the picture of the guys (Romak, Rodemsky and Kalina) untangling a plane at a meet (page 125).
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Old Mar 08, 2008, 08:19 AM
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No haven't been waxing. Do you have the wax on the form during the rolling and heating proccess? Or add it later when gluing tube? Wasn't very hard gluing up the 1/32 stuff, but soon as I tried thinner material, any ability I might have had went south...way south. Am wondering if the tube can be rolled up using thicker stuff...THEN.. sanding it down (as a tube) to get the wall thickness needed.

Checked out pg. 125...looks like the lads mighta had a midair. They look pretty intense! Not to worry I am most definitely taking the sturdy (way sturdy) path, on the road to enlightenment.

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Old Mar 08, 2008, 11:37 AM
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Try pre-gluing the edges first... And you might want to use a brush...

I use a 0 or 00 -good- quality artist brush, and glue my seams with Duco thinned to about 40% Duco/60% Acetone... you can use Ambroid, but it dries a bit too slow for my liking...

You brush a very light coat of the thinned solution onto both edges of the seam... just enough to cover the edge, don't slop it on the inside or outside of the tube... Then wait a minute for it to dry, and then put it back on the form, and put another application of the same thinned glue on one of the edges... push the edges lightly together, hold for about 10-15 seconds, and it should stay shut... Then you just repeat that the whole way up the tube, about an inch at a time... if you have trouble doing an inch at a time, try a half inch...

I don't do anything to the tube (i.e. waxing, teflon, etc...) and never have any trouble with sticking... but that is only on metal and fiberglass forms... wood might be a bit more difficult... Sometimes right after pushing the seam together, I rotate the tube on the seam so that any glue that goes to the form will not stick...

The biggest trick is not to get too much glue on the joint... that's why it takes longer to dry, sticks to the form, and warps... I do .012 F1D motorsticks this way, .009 F1D booms, and .020+ Pennyplane motorsticks... works for all that I have tried... one of the older indoor guys showed me this a year or so ago, and now all of my tubes go together quick and straight (ok, at least most of them...)

There was one guy who glued his seams with CyA, right on the form... but his trick was to not put more CyA on the seam joint than would go through the wood... combine that philosophy with a brush and very thin glue and double gluing, and I think your success rate will go up...

Also, put marks on the joint edges with a sharpie every 2" or so up the stick... makes things -much- easier to line up straight...

My two cents...

JH
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Old Mar 08, 2008, 12:59 PM
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Thanks JH. If fact thanks Ron, Bruce for the help. A lotta good ideas there. Hope no one minds, cause I'm writing em all down. Am going to give JH's idea a try tonight, after getting back from my first real fly-in session. Yeeeeehaaw....paw, goin flyin. And in the rain too. We've gotten close to an inch of rain since morning, here in New England. Hope the roof don't leak.

Will try gluing up another tube on the steel form, using Duco thinned out. Will start with some .020 stock and see how it goes. I may yet get an ezb under 2 grams. I know, to many, that will seem like a walk in da park, but to me, it'll be like climbing the Matterhorn (always wanted to do that).

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