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Old Feb 12, 2008, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Timinator
Anyone mentioned EPA yet?
Tim...EPA?....Please explain to those not bright enough to know...like me
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 04:04 AM
Bill Scott
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United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, Belfast
Joined Nov 2002
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I don't fly 60" (or F3f for that matter), the Irish Sea makes travel to comps VERY expensive!.

However, my understanding was that EPP racing was brought in to reduce the carnage (& expense) of crunchie racing. Therefore, if the new material is not going to increase damage to other aircraft in the heat is there really a problem?
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 07:14 AM
DS= -$ & :-)
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Byron Bay, Australia
Joined Feb 2006
3,088 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnx
Ezza

Got some close-up photos of the Buurly covering on the Reaper? I'd like to see how your wingtips and leading edge turned out. I covered my halfpipe with ballisti- on top and burrly- on bottom with the burrly over the LE ... turned out really well, but a little ragged on the tips due to the need to pleat.

Cheers

Kahn
I have not taken any photos yet, I am still waiting for a new fuse to arrive.

I cut the wingtips square for simplicity. Put a fold in the burrly and stuck about one inch on the top and bottom. No joins on the top and only one on the bottom which is dead smooth anyway. It also made the ailerons heaps stiffer. Clear tape for hinges it feels like a mouldie!

Eric
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 07:16 AM
Taranis Tyro...
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United Kingdom, England, Hitchin
Joined Jan 2004
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Blimey - I'm getting a sense of deja vu! Reminds me of the time that idiot covered his HP60 in brown paper, then had to take it off again cos it was illegal...

I'm kinda with everyone else - I'd need to see it on a model before I could comment fully. However, reading the posts these materials show so much promise it would be foolish to discount them out of hand. The only thing we can be fairly confident of is that the heaviest grade (Plastic Ply Balisti-Cover Burrly) is almost certain to be too stiff to be within the rules (Karl describes it as tricky to put on due to it's stiffness, requiring extensive pleating). The Balisti-Cover Heavy sounds the best canduidate, described as "Strong, stiff but reasonably pliable" (insert your own gag here! ).

Personally I'm happy to let Steve do a few test pieces and report back via the forum - I'm sure we can come to a concensus. If we can't, then he can make the call as coordinator and we'll all comply (see, volunteering wasn't a totally thankless task after all... )

Matt

PS - I'm with Andy when he says fancy covering is unlikely to improve performance, but if it makes EPP racers quicker, easier and cheaper to finish, it's got to be a step forward, and might improve attendance. As to the arms race argument, well... at $40 for 100ft of the stuff, it's miles cheaper than a hybrid of 3M77/goop/strapping tape/profilm we're using now. The only issue would be making it available here in handier sized quantities (nothing a shared order couldn't sort though).
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 07:26 AM
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n-tropic's Avatar
Devon, UK
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skirmish
Well it's February now and if I remember correctly last year's league started in March. So, if this year's league follows the same calendar there is not a lot of time available for evaluating this new covering and making a decision regarding it's eligibility.
Quite so Dave.

Andy will try to book us the Saturdays before the F3F Sundays as in previous years. Before he can do that the F3F community is holding a ballot (as I'm sure you know) to decide whether to go to North and South leagues or to stay national. The dates will therefore depend on the ballot and we will have to wait a bit yet. He has said that he will try to make the callendar correspond closely to last year's so I forsee the start of the season being a very short notice comp (probably at Eastborne).
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 07:40 AM
Taranis Tyro...
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United Kingdom, England, Hitchin
Joined Jan 2004
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PS - I was going to post this in the original "new stuff thread", but it's been closed... before we get too excited, I'd like to see how it performs under extended UV. The chemist in me would certainly be surprised if there weren't at least some issues - a clear film gives significantly lower protection to the adhesive below (an adhesive which at the moment we don't know the properties of).

Steve - Maybe you can leave a sample outside for a while and see how the adhesive holds up?
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 10:25 AM
Dean
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USA, CO, Littleton
Joined Apr 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyB
Blimey fancy covering is unlikely to improve performance, but if it makes EPP racers quicker, easier and cheaper to finish, it's got to be a step forward,
This the whole/sole reason Karl is so excited about this stuff. Build a bee in an hour....for peauts. UV safe...who cares? It's sacrificial anyway! I've seen Karl smash 3 birds DSing in one day and come down the hill laughing like a little kid, happy as a lark. 3 birds smashed today....3 new birds by bedtime.



Dean....
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 11:54 AM
The Predator
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Golden, Colorado
Joined Dec 2004
3,565 Posts
I think all informed comments are right on. I definitely think the Balisti-Cover Heavy (BCH) slightly softer stretchy stuff will be a winner with many and pose no issues.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with John too when he says a MEGA strapping tape wing will be a much more likely canidate to inflict SERIOUS damage to others even VS a Burrly. Those ships are ALWAYS heavy and as stiff as any due to the fiber glass in it. I think MANY classes of the new stuff will be more friendly then the heafty stapping tape and goop ships. The key is AUW, to get a ship REAL stiff with lots of 77 or thinned goop on the cores for adhesion, then 2X stapping taped and then usually more thinned goop and finally light traditional coverings and maybe more thinned goop, OMG. That has to be heavy and; it does make a very nice fast tough ship. The new stuff could have light thinned goop LE's for armor and adhesion, two runs of span wise stapping tape courses, top and bottom, overlapping the LE 3/4" or so, then the new stuff BCH. I KNOW that build will produce a VERY similar ship to the mega tape job and be WAY easier, cheaper, lighter and similar durability, medium amount of build time!
Last, you can go only stiff covering, plastic ply Burrly, Medium, or Light and NO adhesives at all, no tape at all, and a few pieces of CF for a spar. These ships are approuching crunchie status in most every way, including the fact that they are light weight despite having heavy covering since THAT'S IT! These ships are not as tough, they BANG into stuff like a chrunchie and do not really bounce as much as bang. They have very impressive performance and would likely SNAP if run over by a 3LBS taped up plank, causing the plank little damage! My last 60" weighed 35ozs and flys GREAT!
I could be wrong but, I'll bet the arms race and all the ships that came from it are the REAL killers! and as a result of huge AUW's, less so due to stiffness/hardness.

I lived out a similar issue in combat competition and here's how it went. A few guys decided, "I'm going to have the biggest heaviest KILLER ship out there and LAY WASTE to the rest." Then there were the Bee pilots like me with their humming bird fighters. Before the event ever started, I was getting a bit upset to hear that my WHOLE fleet of Bees, mine and the other 10 I built for other competitors were all going to be SMASHED by a few sleds and kind of wreck the comp. At the time the rules permitted it so, I did nothing and just went to the event, worried.
Turned out the big heavies could deal out a BIG blows, a couple times, then sooner or later they'd PLOW in HARD and be dead by their own weight on impact, even killing elevons simply due to the shock of crashing nose first, like I'm SURE you all have seen.
The whole heavy bird thing turned into a non issue and the brothers decided we'd all be happiest just using light weight stuff and relying on pilot skills and light weight durable ships to keep us in the fight! I've found this with DS too. There's ONLY ONE SHIP that has ANY chance of coming back from a NASTY crash DSing, it's a light weight Bee!
So, in a nut shell, I really think you guys will have WAY MORE FUN, have WAY less hard feelings/heart breaking crashes, and spend WAY less time and $ at the build table using lighter ships! Wheather you guys go with the new stuff, who knows. To me going light, and even racing at a few K slower will be WAY MORE FUN over all! You still need a skillfull pilot to win, even in a turtle race! Take it from a Paraglider Pilot, LOL! We had FUN Bee races last year too! and again this year!
Last, I'm also testing foam that does NOT NEED ADHESIVE applied first for tape to stick to it, WELL! This would be the CROWN jewel for EASY TOUGH BUILDS and I'll be maidening my first proto with it TODAY! Took me a MORNING to build that PROTO!
I'm going to REVOLUTIONIZE what a foamie build is, for me, FOR SURE. For the rest, it is up to you!
I have had zero UV issues to date and have had a couple ships in the sun for over 25 flying days. More testing required to be sure but, I'm with Deano, WHO CARES, its so cheap and easy! Definitely IDEAL for DSers! A bit of spary paint and that's a non-issue too.
We'll all be on the same page once that stuff shows up at Steve's. I gave a bunch to Barry too when he was visiting CO/Dean recently from the UK as well. The Aussie guys and John do have it now and use it so, they truely know already! Let us know what you think Steve, when the proof is in the pudding!
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 05:24 PM
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Waiting...
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 07:01 PM
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Devon, UK
Joined Dec 2003
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Well It's Here!

Sorry for not posting earlier, I got back from work, had to shove some food down and take a bunch of young 'uns out to the footie.

First of all thank you to Karl the Predator.


My first impression of the stuff is that it isn't quite as thick as I imagined. Suddenly a digital vernier becomes a blunt instrument but:

The Balisticover Heavy is approx 0.25mm. Thicker than pro film by far but quite floppy which is hopeful.

The Plastic Plys are relatively stiffer but still very bendy. The PP Med (Karl's recommendation for 60" racers [EDIT previous to the post above]) is only 0.17mm and the Burly 0.25mm.

(BTW the roll outside the box in the picture is some 0.125mm document laminating film I got from work for comparison. It is strikingly similar to the Plastic Plys in "feel" but obviously thinner. Laminating film is usually mylar I believe.)

I look at these things and think "yeah, I wouldn't be scared of racing against that." Then I look at the rules and think "SOFT coverings only, plastic card not allowed." Argh! This is going to be difficult.

We're getting some really useful information and opinions based on practical experience of the New Stuff from the US and the Aussies (thanks for posting guys ). My difficult position is that I have to make an adjudication based on the rules not on my own preferences (or even on common sense!) This is not because I'm a rules kind of guy but because we are dealing with a racing class sanctioned by our sport's national body. It's just not in my gift to make it up as I go along.

That said I do think this stuff could be in the grey area between soft covering and plastic card - particularly the BC-H. And don't forget the PP will be replacing Pro-film and layers of strapping tape (comments about super-heavy strapping tape builds duly noted).

The thing to do then is to get some on some foam. I will try to do that tomorrow evening and will then set about it with a hammer to see how it compresses and reforms. Should be fun. Better than that will be to get some on a model. This is going to take longer. Avago and I are intending to throw together some cheap and dirty chevron wings and cover them with New Stuff but we've got to make the hot wire templates first. We could bring these to a race meeting and everyone could take a look and have fun after the comp trying to mid air them head to head. (Bet that'll be hard when you WANT it to happen .)

In the mean time If anyone would like a free A4 sized sample of BC-H and PP-Med then drop me a PM with your address. (By anyone I mean anyone who entered a BMFA EPP60 comp last year or who is intending to enter one this year - The rest of yez can buy yer own! ).

The holding position has to be this:
Until they have been evaluated these coverings have to be regarded as not [EDIT: currently] legal for BMFA EPP 60


Steve
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 07:41 PM
Put in all the lead
n-tropic's Avatar
Devon, UK
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Predator
So, in a nut shell, I really think you guys will have WAY MORE FUN, have WAY less hard feelings/heart breaking crashes, and spend WAY less time and $ at the build table using lighter ships! Wheather you guys go with the new stuff, who knows. To me going light, and even racing at a few K slower will be WAY MORE FUN over all! You still need a skillfull pilot to win, even in a turtle race!...... The whole heavy bird thing turned into a non issue and the brothers decided we'd all be happiest just using light weight stuff......
Hey Karl! Have you been talking to Mike Isoaritfirst Evans? He's been eloquently voicing this argument for a while now.

In all seriousness I have a lot more sympathy with this idea than Mike I think realises. I enjoy flying light racers very much and tend to get my best results when the conditions are light. Unfortunately, although we are also something of a brotherhood it's the rule book which sets our parameters so we'd have to change the rules to bring in a maximum weight stipulation. This could be done if the consensus was for it. However, as well as some sympathy for it I do have reservations about such a change. A few weeks ago I went to one of the Huddersfield clubs race meetings. I saw more models smashed there than at any other meeting I've been to but, and here's the rub, there were no mid-airs at all! The max wind was measured at 70mph gusting to 84 on the lip in the compression zone so maybe it was a 45mph day or something - it was certainly very gusty. Planes were being dashed against the slope in droves simply because they didn't have the mass to hold their line. OK this was an extreme scenario but I think it takes supreme piloting skills and a nice clean model to fly a lightweight in high winds. Most of us don't have either of those . I would fear that we'd end up canceling a lot of competitions simply because it's too windy for most people to manage without ballast.

Anyway I've meandered a bit off topic. Or maybe not. If it ends up taking a rule change to legalise Balisticover then a max weight restriction could be enacted at the same time. As Karl implies these two issues could go hand in hand. But whatever! This is a topic for another day and another thread. I can only cope with looking at Balisticover wrt the rules we have now which must pertain for this season.

Steve
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Old Feb 13, 2008, 03:46 AM
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Steve I have PM'd you Ref samples. I will pass around to the Hudds Mafia.
Brian
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Old Feb 13, 2008, 04:04 AM
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West Yorkshire, UK
Joined Dec 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowblue
Steve I have PM'd you Ref samples. I will pass around to the Hudds Mafia.
Brian
Well done Brian. You get the Huddersfield sample and then there is no need for the rest of us to ask for one from Steve.
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Old Feb 13, 2008, 04:10 AM
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West Yorkshire, UK
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Steve. I think you have made the correct call on the race legality of the material for the time being. Let's review it when we know more about it's qualities relating to EPP60 and then make a correct decision that hopefully we can all be happy with.
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Old Feb 13, 2008, 04:28 AM
C'mon more Energy
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Melbourne, Australia
Joined Mar 2005
3,254 Posts
Flew my HP60 in some awesome costal air today covered in Burly. The second flight i misjudged the nasty rotor behind the hill and it gor rolled in. My 1.6Kg HP60 sled hit the ground from about 25 metres hitting the earth one wing tip down. Thinking it would be a mess i walked over and to my suprise there was only a small impact mark on the leading edge. Nothing that would slow it down or make a differnce in flight performance. Happy days.
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