Alert UPDATED -- Futaba 6EX and 7C Serivce Advisory

[RyanPSU21]

Originally Posted by Daemon

I will say this though.
If you are the concerned owner of a FASST system, there's one relatively
foolproof way to ensure that you will not ever be shot down, from now
until the time Futaba comes up with a permanent fix.
Pick yourself up a brand new Rx and do not bind it to your Tx.
Mark it with a big Z and keep it and a spare servo with you.
This is your ZGUID Rx. Check your Tx against it regularly.
Check it before you launch your high dollar turbine into the sky
for instance. Demonstrate how you use it to the CD at events. This
will ensure that you *will not be shot down*.
When you get to the field and see others flying FASST systems, power up
your ZGUID Rx first and see if it moves. If it does then you'll know whether
anyone *else* is has a ZGUID Tx. If they do, then don't turn on until you
find them. That will ensure that when you turn on your Tx (even if it
has reset since you last used it), that you will not shoot anyone else down.

Yes we're talking about extremely small odds, and yes it'd be annoying
to have an Rx around that you can't use for anything else, but it's a
small price to pay if you're flying high dollar aircraft and want to protect yourself.

ian

Why do that? Buy yourself a second reciever. It's not bound when it shows up so you know your TX isn't a ZGUID TX. Bind it. Then you have 2 functioning recievers. You are now find unless at some point your TX becomes unbound, at which point send it back for service. You are making it way to difficult.

[pilotpete2]

Originally Posted by village_idiot

Sounds like Futaba needs to build a CHEAP device that you can use that will display the GUID of a TX. That and a decent spectrum analyzer seem to be required devices at contests.

Maybe they should even sell a computer interface so that the TX can be reprogrammed by the end user (snow ball's chance where?).

As to the first, you won't need it when the problem is fixed.

You have to be joking on the user programmability
Think "Dial a Crash" OK, OK I realize the numerical odds of duplicating somebodies GUID that you may fly with may be small, but that's the only type of lottery that I'll ever hit
If you remember the Little Abner comic trip, there was this little old guy that had a thunder cloud over his head that followed him everywhere, can't remember the name, but some times I think I be He.
Cheers,
Pete

If I had a FASST system now and I flew with other FASST users (we have one DX6 at our field)
I'd do what Ryan suggested, sounds extreme to buy another receiver, but when the problem if fixed you have the receiver to use then.

[XJet]

I'm actually rather surprised that they stored something as critical as the GUID in rewritable memory. This would be better stored in fuseasble write-once ROM, that way it can't be altered once it's set.

The cost of a cheap device like this is tiny compared to the cost of a recall.

This way, even if other aspects of the EEPROM were corrupted, a simple "reset" operation would restore the GUID and allow users to re-enter any other (less critical) information that may have been lost.

[sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R

And so there is no confusion, the quotes from the 14MZ manual that I posted have NOTHING to do with with the issue that is the current topic of conversation. My point was that being careful about the switch on/off procedures is nothing new and I cannot see how it should be an issue IF it turns out to be necessary in the case of the 6EX/7C FASST/TM-7.

Thanks for the explanations. Another question.

If you have a hard reset, what happens to the programmed channel in your dial-a-crash? Does it stay on the last channel or reset to some other channel. (this is for my knowledge and not 100% to this topic....sorry guys)

The reason I ask.... the power switch issue does pertain "if and only if" cycling power sets your guid to zero.

Why? ......here's my contest example.

We have 3 FASST users. They all turn on and are unaffected by each other before the contest during the CD intiated test. What we didn't know at the time is pilot #3 already had a zero guid. Pilot 1 is about to fly but for some reason turns his radio on/off quickly (for whatever reason).

1. He remembers after the fact that he now put his radio to zero guid. He figures, what's the harm, the other flyers didn't interfere so I'm good to go on zero. He attempts to rebind....but Pilot #3 is already flying......in the dirt he goes

2. He doesn't remember anything (more likely here). He simply turns his radio on and can't understand why his plane isn't working....meanwhile Pilot #3 was flying.....is now in the dirt.

[RyanPSU21]

If someone is really irresponsible they might go and do that. But that is again on the same lines as turning on your TX without getting the pin from the board and checking while a lot of other people are flying. The FASST recievers are not easy to get to the bind button especially if your reciever is not really easily accessible on the outside of the plane. So it's a take your plane apart, dig the reciever out and then bind and put plane back together again. Someone is going to see him doing it if it's a contest. It's going to take some real effort on someone's part.

Buying an extra reciever isn't that extreme an idea. Most of us have multiples just for more then one plane anyways.

[sweetpea]

I think its more realistic that the pilot doesn't realize they have unbound their transmitter RX until after they turn it on and see it doesn't work. By this time it would be too late for the pilot who was already on Zguid and didn't know it because the intial check showed no problems.

[Daemon]

Ryan, you're still missing the obvious.
Same scenario. All pilots have checked with each other and found
no interference but one of them is already using ZGUID Tx/Rx. One of the
non-ZGUID pilots does something that causes it to reset to ZGUID
unbeknownst to them.

No matter how "responsible" they are, they will *not* know
that a problem has occurred until they switch their Tx back on
and notice that their Rx is no longer responding when he powers it up
a few seconds later. Unfortunately the other ZGUID pilot's plane is
already locked up and falling out of the sky by that time.

Everyone did everything right, and the problem still can occur.
If you rely on the "check with everyone else" method alone,
then every FASST equipped plane must be on the ground
and pilots in constant communication every time any one of them
turns on. That's ridiculous.

That's why there must be a known ZGUID Rx (which we already
know exist, because they come from the factory that way), and it must
be checked before turning on your Tx (to ensure that nobody else is already
flying on ZGUID), and after turning on your Tx (to ensure that
your Tx hasn't been reset to ZGUID since last time you checked it).
If you check with it, then you will never shoot anyone else
down, and never be shot down regardless of what *anyone* else does.

Even if there's only one ZGUID Rx for the whole club, it cuts everyone's
chance of being shot down in half, even when some people follow
the rules and some people don't, because at least the people following
the rules will never shoot down those who aren't and vise versa.
Only those not following the rules at all (not checking against
the ZGUID Rx first), can shoot each other down.

ian

[Daemon]

Originally Posted by sweetpea

I think its more realistic that the pilot doesn't realize they have unbound their transmitter RX until after they turn it on and see it doesn't work. By this time it would be too late for the pilot who was already on Zguid and didn't know it because the intial check showed no problems.

Bingo.

ian

[Silent-AV8R]

Originally Posted by sweetpea

Thanks for the explanations. Another question.

If you have a hard reset, what happens to the programmed channel in your dial-a-crash? Does it stay on the last channel or reset to some other channel. (this is for my knowledge and not 100% to this topic....sorry guys)

First, I detest that name. It has no basis in reality. On the 14MZ (and the 12's) the radio asks you to confirm transmission before starting up the RF module.

The channel resets to the default, which I forget what that is. Basically a hard reset is like re-formatting your hard drive. EVERYTHING is lost. That is why I back up ALL my models onto the CF card. Worse case, I simply reload the models from the card back onto the transmitter.

The reason I ask.... the power switch issue does pertain "if and only if" cycling power sets your guid to zero.

All this angst is predicated upon the assumption that rapid switch cycling is in fact the root cause. At this time it is suspected, but it has not been reproduced by Hobbico or Futaba.

That is why at this point I still keep banging the "let's wait until we know" drum. Futaba is keenly interested in solving this problem. They are working diligently to resolve it. While it is amusing to spend time on endless speculation on the Internet, I still say we need to let Futaba get this sorted out.

As far as your contest coming up, in the event you have more than one 6EX or 7C-FASST or TM-7 based system at the contest, I would simply treat them as if they are on the same channel. A contest format is the absolute easiest place to control this situation while Futaba gets it worked out. I would give any and all CDs and clubs the same advice. Treat these 3 systems as a "channel" until we know what the root cause is and a solution worked out.

[RyanPSU21]

She hasn't confirmed it but I would guess that we will get a sticker or something when we get the GUID confirmed and that new TX's will start coming with this sticker. Sort of similar to when we started all getting the gold band stickers and you technically weren't supposed to use a TX after a certain date that didn't have them. I think it's then reasonable to treat anyone with a checked sticker normally. Anyone without gets treated as all being on one channel or just not allowed to fly. It's probably not out of the realm of possibility that when the checking stations become available to the retailers that if you had a major contest coming up you could get one to come to the event and check there anyone not already checked.

[sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R

First, I detest that name. It has no basis in reality. On the 14MZ (and the 12's) the radio asks you to confirm transmission before starting up the RF module.

The channel resets to the default, which I forget what that is. Basically a hard reset is like re-formatting your hard drive. EVERYTHING is lost. That is why I back up ALL my models onto the CF card. Worse case, I simply reload the models from the card back onto the transmitter.




All this angst is predicated upon the assumption that rapid switch cycling is in fact the root cause. At this time it is suspected, but it has not been reproduced by Hobbico or Futaba.

That is why at this point I still keep banging the "let's wait until we know" drum. Futaba is keenly interested in solving this problem. They are working diligently to resolve it. While it is amusing to spend time on endless speculation on the Internet, I still say we need to let Futaba get this sorted out.

As far as your contest coming up, in the event you have more than one 6EX or 7C-FASST or TM-7 based system at the contest, I would simply treat them as if they are on the same channel. A contest format is the absolute easiest place to control this situation while Futaba gets it worked out. I would give any and all CDs and clubs the same advice. Treat these 3 systems as a "channel" until we know what the root cause is and a solution worked out.

Thanks for the info on the 72mhz reset. I will have to look into what the original channel is so I know who might be effected if this ever happens

I am also leaning toward the impound for the FASST and deconflicting flights so only one is on at a time just in case. Should be an easy task for any contest that is in the near time, but once FASST floods the market like Spektrum has it may not be that easy to deconflict since its like having everyone on the same channel. Really limits what a CD can do.


And sorry to say I may have to impound every FASST 2.4 and treat it as a specific channel. If one person with one of the listed affected models is worried about flying at the same time as someone who has a model/module that Futaba has said they couldn't get to fail for now I feel I would have to respect that concern.

Of course if Futaba can come back and explain exactly what has happened, why it happened and stop it from happening in the future this will all go away.

[Daemon]

I can build you a FASST ZGUID checking station right now.
1 Brand new $100 FASST Rx (pre-bound to ZGUID from the factory)
1 $12 servo with a little rod attached to the servo arm with a red flag at the top
1 $12 2700 mAh 4 cell battery pack (should run all day and then some)

Hook it up, turn it on, if the flag waves (ch 1 moves off neutral position),
then there's a ZGUID Tx in operation.

Institute one simple rule for the event (or any club).
"Check with the ZGUID station before turning your Tx on, and again after turning your Tx on. If the flag ever moves, then find the offending ZGUID Tx, and turn it off."

That will ensure that nobody is shot down, or can shoot anyone else down
and requires minimal coordination between pilots. As the CD, you
say that if you see anyone not following the rule, then *all* FASST
Tx's will be impounded. That'll add a little peer pressure.

I'm serious.

ian

[JustinG]

Originally Posted by Daemon

I can build you a FASST ZGUID checking station right now.
1 Brand new $100 FASST Rx (pre-bound to ZGUID from the factory)
1 $12 servo with a little rod attached to the servo arm with a red flag at the top
1 $12 2700 mAh 4 cell battery pack (should run all day and then some)

Hook it up, turn it on, if the flag waves (ch 1 moves off neutral position),
then there's a ZGUID Tx in operation.

Institute one simple rule for the event (or any club).
"Check with the ZGUID station before turning your Tx on, and again after turning your Tx on. If the flag ever moves, then find the offending ZGUID Tx, and turn it off."

That will ensure that nobody is shot down, or can shoot anyone else down
and requires minimal coordination between pilots. As the CD, you
say that if you see anyone not following the rule, then *all* FASST
Tx's will be impounded. That'll add a little peer pressure.

I'm serious.

ian

ian,

I was just thinking myself about how you could use a new, never-bound rx as sort of a canary in the mine, hooking up a flag is a great idea.... Presumably their "testing stations" will contain an un-bound rx inside, and that's fine for the hobby shop... but if the GUID can be lost/reset at any time then that's of limited use.

What if if Futaba took the testing station idea a little further and made available a totally stripped down receiver with no bind button, no servo hookups (or maybe 1 channel output for activating a servo to wave a flag for example), and an internal buzzer that sounds to alert you that a ZGUID has been detected, and made it available CHEAP cheap cheap, so CD's and clubs could have something to monitor at the field.

Would be a lot more useful than having a "testing station" in selected hobby shops, I would think.

[sweetpea]

So as the CD I have to spend my (or the club's) money to create this testing station? Then I have to set someone to specifically watch this flag the entire 2 day contest?

Not only that.....do you have any kind of idea the outrage that would happen when you tell someone who just drove 8hrs.......

You know your 2.4 system you just bought. If this little flag waves ...your done for the day. Tough luck.

At this point I'd impound and only let one fly at a time. If I had enough radios to cause an issue with not being able to do that or interfere with the judging matrix because of it then I would probably charge the Futaba FASST flyers more in entry fees to create this test kit and most likely limit the number of entries assuming I can only fly one flight line.

None of these options are ideal.

[Daemon]

I'd make some FASST owner or owners pay for the station or hit a
LHS up for sponsorship. Wouldn't cost them anything.

If you factor in the odds of this reset to ZGUID actually occurring (like
1000 to 1 against) then it's not nearly as complicated as you make
it out to be. You make sure everyone runs their Tx through
the testing station at least once (no more complicated than having an
impound) you tell them "the rule" and let them police it themselves.
You want 100% compliance but it's not actually necessary.

If you think about it, the chances of someone simply doing something
dumb on the sticks and crashing their own plane at an event is much much
higher than the chances of a spontaneous reset to ZGUID of two FASST
systems on the same day at the same event. And even if it does occur it
requires two people and it's not going to happen to them at the same time.
So if even a small number of people are using the testing station properly,
then odds are that someone will see the first occurrence, before the 1 in
1000 of a second occurs. This is the advantage of using a ZGUID bound
Rx for your testing station, because *anyone* can see what's going on at the
whole field at once. It's in their own best interest to bring it to
your attention if they see the flag move.

If you do an impound of only a single brand of Tx, you're not going
to get 100% compliance anyway. Guaranteed.
Besides, what's more labor intensive? Manning an Tx impound for 2 days
or keeping an occasional eye on the traffic at the testing station?

ian