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Old Jan 13, 2008, 01:31 AM
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My First Flip (& My First Crash...)

You have to try it sooner or later, right???

I can flip all day long on my AFPD simulator, although on the simulator I am much closer to the ground. Anyway, after a few good flights today, I decided to try my first flip.

Looks like I didn't quite complete the flip, and it looks like I added a bit of a left roll inadvertantly. After that, I lost orientation and she went down with a vengance. My rotor speed is about 2600 and during the flip the lowest it dipped was 2100. I went high for recovery time in case of bad things. Actually, because I was high, I think it made it easier to lose orientation.

Anyway, have a look and let me know what you think. I thought I had completed the flip 360 back to upright, but it doesn't look like I made it more than 270. So when I gave up collective, I went down in a hurry.

Check it out while I start ordering parts:
First Flip & First Crash (2 min 55 sec)


Waff
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 01:39 AM
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looks more to me like you didnt work the collective properly.

SPaRX
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 01:40 AM
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Gave up collective too soon at end of flip?
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 01:43 AM
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No.. more like you had postive pitch when heli was just about inverted... then you threw in way too much negative pitch very late in the flip.

SPaRX
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 01:49 AM
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should go like this.......

heli level = 0 degress.

Postive pitch till 90 degress. Around 0 pitch from 90 to 180. 180 to 270 negative pitch 270 to 0 around 0 pitch... then postive pitch back into hover.

Look like you did more of... 0-180 positive pitch..... 180 to about 270 around 0 pitch and then threw in a bunch of negative pitch after you went past 270... thats why it shoot off like a rocket.

SPaRX
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 02:08 AM
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"bunch of negative pitch after you went past 270... thats why it shoot off like a rocket."

When you say shot off like a rocket, you mean when it took off sideways?
So it looks like my collective adjustments were all late.
After it shot off sideways, I think I gave it up collective but was still around 270 because I never completed with my down elevator.

I think I will reduce expo before next time as well. Seems like 25 has a lot of slow movement followed by very aggressive movement when it kicks in. I might try 15% next time.

Thanks for the feedback.
Waff
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 02:41 AM
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Running a low head speed and bad collective management is a bad combination. Anyway don't worry because you made your first flip. I would suggest one thing before you try to do your next flip. Learn to fly inverted in all orientations on good simulator and then you'll see how your skills would change.
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 02:53 AM
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It seems that you just need more stick time doing inverted. The heli hung in there at some point inverted so your negative can at least achieve an inverted hover. It's not easy. It is mind blowing and all your sim time will be out the window faster than you can say "brain freeze".

Warm up flying around a few packs. Use your last pack for the session to flip. This removes too much anticipation which leads to fear.
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 02:54 AM
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I am not looking to do 3d any time soon, I just wanted to do a simple flip. Is 2600 RPM too low for this? What head speed should I be running for inverted flight and simple flips/rolls but no 3d?

Oh, I did try this on my last pack after a few very nice flights on my first two packs. Once my orientation got lost, brain freeze grabbed me fast.

Thanks,
Waff
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waff
I am not looking to do 3d any time soon, I just wanted to do a simple flip. Is 2600 RPM too low for this? What head speed should I be running for inverted flight and simple flips/rolls but no 3d?

Thanks,
Waff

It's not really important how fast head speed is for 3d but it is much more important how hard the motor bogs down. Running 4s lipo will help to minimize motor bogging at some point but with 3 cells battery it is better to keep the motor running as hard as possible. Assuming you have Align 3550kv motor then you'd need 13t pinion and throttle curve as high as possible. The motor will bog one way or another way due to weak motor and bad collective management.
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 03:20 AM
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it did kinda look like you threw some roll in by mistake......plus add that to pore collective management
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 03:42 AM
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You do not need high head speed to flip, but you do need to manage your collective properly.

Waff, what model in AFPD have you been using to practice? It is really important to tweak a model to fly like as close to your real model as possible. I found that alot of the stock models in AFPD flip entirely too easy. If you want, I can try and work up a Trex model for you that should be closer to what you are running.

SPaRX
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 04:06 AM
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Hm... That looks pretty much like mine crash after double loop (more or less).

I think that, plainly, you are just not ready for it! LOL :P

You crashed only because you are not comfortable with heli in all orientations including those where rotor is not horizontal - above the helicopter. You didn't know how to react when it moved to position you didn't anticipated it will.

What happened on the video seems, as I said similar to what I have experienced (several times) - as soon as the machine moves to position I didn't 'learn' - it ends out of control. So - if your flip wasn't clinical as in simulator - head ended tilted, let's say 30 deg, to one side and you have (me neither ) skill to fix it quickly and when it happens then all other moves you do just make it worse. I have figured it out after two of mine crashes in a similar way: Good. Good. Good, good... squiggle, squiggle, squiggle, hard earth + piece of entangled broken rotors, flybar, etc...

After that I have deliberately went into a loop (in sim) banking to one side and the same happened. Then started practicing that and things got better.

I am not saying you shouldn't be trying it or anything similar. On contrary - find your limits and go over them - that is only way to learn. Right? (at least that is what I was doing even without realising it O: )

BTW Very recently I have found out that you can 'speed up' simulation time in AFPD and that makes it slightly harder. Maybe you want to try with that.
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 04:24 AM
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Sorry to see your crash, it looked pretty hard, I hope that the damage wasn't too bad.

I notice before the flip you're flying exclusively tail in. Are you 100% comfortable with your heli at all orientations the normal way up? If not it might be worth working on this first. The trick to trying anything new is to know how to recover it when things go wrong. If you're comfortable with your heli at all orientations then it wont matter how you exit a loop or a flip you'll still be able to catch the heli.
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Last edited by khaoz; Jan 13, 2008 at 04:26 AM. Reason: sp.
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Old Jan 13, 2008, 05:05 AM
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I was going to say the same as khaoz. You didn't seem too comfortable with just hovering and flying the thing high up. Even if you manage to flip it this time it will catch you out the next time when the heli is in a bad way and you can't recover. When I first started loops I gave up after 6 bad crashs and consolidated my circuit flying for 9 months, after the saboth I started areobatics again and I've cracked loops, rolls, flips and inverted nose in hover without a single crash.

As to the flip itself, you held it for some reason while inverted, you have to commit until the heli is all the way round. The HS I think is way too low, yank the cyclic and it will bog (difficult to hear in the video, I think I heard some bogging but may have been bad collective management as well).

As to sideways movement, I still get some of that myself from time to time on back flips because I think my thumb is too short, so I'm reducing the cyclic stick gradually over time. You may want to try that too. I also reduced my pitch stick to the lowest height, this has helped loads with inverted hover collective management.

Final thing, do it on a bright and sunny day. The heli just looks like a black mass on a poor day and you have to fly from memory. Paint the canopy and tail fin to bright colours.

Good try anyway, at least you have it on video, nothing worst than a bad crash and no video.
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