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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:02 AM
Red Merle ALES
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http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.z...-Trimming.html
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Personal Choice

Rod,
I agree with Curtis's statement: "there are some very smart folks who have debated this ad nausea um and I believe they agree to disagree." I personally have 3 V-tail slopers, and although I enjoy flying them, they have always seemed to be a bit "tail-waggy" to me. (Of course, that's probably because of me being the builder.) The most stable slopers I have are not V-tails.

A few years ago I had a Talon, with a V-tail. I ended up giving it to my brother (Freedom Flyer), and he totally rebuilt the tail into a standard elevator/rudder configuration. (Unlike Curtis, I don't know the technical term for that ) I think it flies quite well now.

By the way, I think you and I met at one of the last ALES events there in East Helena. Glad to hear you enjoy sloping. We'll definitely have to share some slope time in the spring.
Blessings,
Arlen

Curtis: That article you posted above makes my head spin

P.S. Rod: I've attached a pic of my three V-Tail slopers
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:33 AM
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Yep we did meet Arlen, good to see you here and thanks for the reply.

Not so sure it's you as (the builder), I hear the Bonanza (real one) has a nice tail wag as well.

Nice photos as well. Thanks! Where was Photo 1 taken?


Curtis, thanks for the link. Great info. I'm making a file to put them in for future reference.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:31 AM
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(Quote) "I hear the Bonanza (real one) has a nice tail wag as well. Nice photos as well. Thanks! Where was Photo 1 taken?" (Quote)

Rod,
I have a friend in Park County that flies a Bonanza V-tail (real one), and it's quite the tail-wagger. Really wierd to ride in

Photo #1 was taken at Cape Blanco in southern Oregon. My brother TIO and I have visited there twice, specifically to slope over the Pacific. It was a real treat.
Thanks for asking,
Arlen
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 01:54 PM
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Very beautiful place to fly for sure.

CloudyIFR, I replied twice to your e-mail, can't seem to get anything to go out Oh well, I'll try again later.

Rod.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 02:09 PM
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V-Tail

Hello Curtis, PMT, Rod,

If I may add some confusion to this decision as to V-tail or not

I agree with Curtis' points on the V-tails causing some pitch change when applied. I have Two V-tails also, and have not really noticed any yaw change when applying elevator either up or down.

Now with the Talon, I don't think it would really be too noticeable since the V-tail is an all flying V-tail. No fixed stab portion. Plus it is only an elevator no rudder.

Now what I would speculate to happen, Since the elevator/horizontal stab is angled to 100 degrees, you will notice that your positive pitch will be fairly sensitive and your negative pitch application will be less sensitive. The reason I say this, is because I did some experimenting with a a full flying stab on a Freedom in the 80's. I bent the pivot wire so that the stab had dihedral and flew it like that for awhile, then bent the pivot wire so that the stabs had anhedral and flew it like that for awhile and what I noticed was the dihedral gave a more crisp positive reaction when applied and the anhedral gave me a more crisp negative reaction when applied. I attributed this to the shape of the stab acting like a shovel when the movement was in the direction dihedral/anhedral direction. In the end I left the stabs flat, as this was the best for both positive and negative maneuvers.

So even though I don't see a problem with a V-tail on the Talon, I will bet you will get a more neutral pitch response with a cruciform tail. Plus I just like cruciform or cross tails to V-tails.

The 2 V-tails I own for the most part really don't wag much at all. I have a Spider 60 and Huron. I have flown these quite a bit. The Spider is really an enjoyable plane to fly, very sensitive on ailerons and smooth on pitch. It doesn't seem to to hip on inverted flight though. That may be is, that it is still a little nose heavy. For a 21oz pane though, it performs well. I have flown it in 45+ winds more than once, actually most of its flying time has been in high winds (just what we had at the time). The Huron has flown in light winds as it is a hand launch aircraft. It comes in at 11oz. I have flown it off of Curtis' hose monster high start, it is a Zip Launch style launch, and it is kind of insane, just ask Curtis.

One thing I have noticed that is very odd with the Huron (may or may not be due to being a V-tail), is that is has one of the most unusual stalls I have ever flown, If apply up elevator slowly, and start mushing the flight, as the airspeed comes down, the tail starts to drop below the nose, yet it doesn't want to stall, until it is almost stopped, then it just falls. It is really weird to experience and describe.

So after all of this, it really is up to you, whether you go cruciform or V. I will admit I like the look of Talon with a V-tail, the stock cruciform tail doesn't seem to match the lines of the Talon, BUT you could change that, just keep the same area and make the shape different IF YOU WANT to.

That is my .02 cents worth of info,
Chip
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:15 PM
Red Merle ALES
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixty9mustang View Post
.
The Huron has flown in light winds as it is a hand launch aircraft. It comes in at 11oz. I have flown it off of Curtis' hose monster high start, it is a Zip Launch style launch, and it is kind of insane, just ask Curtis.

Chip
Believe it or not he wings stayed on too! Wow, impressive for a small balsa glider.

Back tot he V-tail. listen to Chip, je is spot on, as usual. If you do not add a rudder to the cruciform tail than all this may be a mute point. But with a rudder you should be able to do some beautiful stall turns, my favorite on the slope.

Curtis
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 04:21 PM
Red Merle ALES
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Oh, Go Griz!
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:08 PM
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I don't think I'll be adding a rudder. Installing the push rod at this point would not be fun. Inverted flight will be important to me on a yank and bank sloper I think. So an equal feel on the elevator will be wanted. It's going to be cruciform for that reason. We'll see, maybe I can improve the shape some.

I'm not familiar with the zip launch, but have a high start. I'd be scared to launch this one with it though, my scale says it has 13 pounds on it when fully stretched.

Thanks again for sharing your research Chip.

36-10 Grizz last I heard.....Roll On
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:06 PM
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What do you guys think for servos? I've got a couple HS-65MG's they should be OK don't you think?
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:10 PM
Surf's up!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudyIFR View Post
Believe it or not he wings stayed on too! Wow, impressive for a small balsa glider.

Back tot he V-tail. listen to Chip, je is spot on, as usual. If you do not add a rudder to the cruciform tail than all this may be a mute point. But with a rudder you should be able to do some beautiful stall turns, my favorite on the slope.

Curtis
Thanks Curtis,

We need to find a slope to complete our flying regimen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed37 View Post
I don't think I'll be adding a rudder. Installing the push rod at this point would not be fun. Inverted flight will be important to me on a yank and bank sloper I think. So an equal feel on the elevator will be wanted. It's going to be cruciform for that reason. We'll see, maybe I can improve the shape some.

I'm not familiar with the zip launch, but have a high start. I'd be scared to launch this one with it though, my scale says it has 13 pounds on it when fully stretched.

Thanks again for sharing your research Chip.

36-10 Grizz last I heard.....Roll On
Hey Rod,

I am attaching a couple of pictures and the video Curtis took of one of my launches. From his perspective, the launch doesn't seem too crazy, but from my perspective, I really don't remember seeing it, until it was almost off the line and heading vertical, HAHA!

Well, Ok, I had to load video to different section, but here is the link,
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...4#post23294944
Chip
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed37 View Post
What do you guys think for servos? I've got a couple HS-65MG's they should be OK don't you think?
ABSOLUTELY!!!! perfect!

Chip
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:51 PM
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Hey Curtis,
How about them Cats feasting on a little bear meat
Was a great watch
Arlen
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:01 PM
Red Merle ALES
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Originally Posted by Paradise MT View Post
Hey Curtis,
How about them Cats feasting on a little bear meat
Was a great watch
Arlen
The game had me on the edge of my seat, so it was a good game.
.

Curtis
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:28 PM
Gone Flyin'
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixty9mustang View Post
Hey Rod,

I am attaching a couple of pictures and the video Curtis took of one of my launches. From his perspective, the launch doesn't seem too crazy, but from my perspective, I really don't remember seeing it, until it was almost off the line and heading vertical, HAHA!

Well, Ok, I had to load video to different section, but here is the link,
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...4#post23294944
Chip

Yeah that went up quick...
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