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Old Oct 05, 2010, 10:53 PM
Boomer1
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United States, CA, Temecula
Joined Sep 2009
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Good question

In my experience I would let some sail out in the heavier stuff and tighten them in the lighter winds.

Here is rule of thumb you can use "turn in the direction the sails are pointing." This helps prevent the booms from slamming. A friend, who is an avid sailor, shared some books on sailing fundamentals with me. One is The Fundamentals of Sailing, Cruising and Racing by Stephen Colgate and another The Handbook of Sailing by Bob Bond.
I was amazed at how helpful these books were. In my life, I have always had power boats. Growing up in Southern California, I was one of those we used to call a river rat. We had ski boats, jet skis, did water ski racing, drag boat and off shore boat racing. Nothing with wind power. The faster it was the better!

When I was introduced to the RC deal, I was fascinated with the beauty of some of the RC Sailboats I had seen.
The rest is history. I have had a bunch of different RC sailboats. Liked them all. I have some power RC boats now, but my first love is RC sailing.
Take a little time, read a little and a new world will open up for you.

Send me a PM if you'd like to chat.
Boomer
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 09:39 AM
Still showing up for breakfast
lilleyen's Avatar
Ontario Canada
Joined Mar 2009
1,100 Posts
Thanks Boomer,

I've done a little full size sailing, and I know what you are referring to.

A downwind turn is called "gybing", (thanks Dick), at least that's what I was instructed to call out before doing it, to warn anybody else on board.
It can be very violent in a stiff breeze, as the boom swings hard over.

Sounds like I was on a racer or something.
Not true, just little 2 man daysailers! Still that little boom can give you quite a whack. Could end up in the drink with a big headache!

I got lucky and an older gentleman who had racing experience, took me under his wing up at the cottage, and we had a lot of fun charging about in his car topper.
One of my neighbours need some " movable ballast" a few times too for his "Laser Eater", (can't remember what boat he had, but it was trailerable and fast), and I got elected. He liked to race too.

The upwind turn, I believe is called "coming about", at least that's what we yelled out, and is a more gentle orderly turn, but you do need to have enough headway (forward speed) to make it work. (for those of you who don't know, not you Boomer)

With our models turning one way seems as good as the other, and sometimes depending on the situation, you have no choice, but I try to keep in mind the wear and tear on the tackle, and follow some kind of miniature seamanship when I'm sailing my Nirvana.
Love that boat.

So I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I guess I need to bone up on the aerodynamics part.
You'd think, with my Dad being a bush pilot, and me being involved with model airplanes all my life, that it would come more easily than it does.
I think my hard drive is full, can't cram any more into it, or else senility is creeping in.

Hope the above missive doesn't sound like I'm preaching to the choir, but I keep in mind the newbies who might be reading this, and who might gain something from it.

I do appreciate the help I get here, and hope to give something back when possible.

Tip:
One thing (I think) I have learned with the Nirvana is when you do try to come about, and it didnt work (in a good breeze), and you end up "in irons" or stalled with your sails flapping uselessly in the wind, and you are going backwards...
If you want to end up with your bow going to starboard, turn your rudder hard to port (just like backing up a car), and your bow will swing away from the wind and catch it and away you go.
The opposite way works too.

I'll look up those two books, sounds like good advice.
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 10:05 AM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
2,186 Posts
Jus some gybing experience that may help in heavier air.

Sailing downwind, you are moving as fast as the wind - no faster.....especially with a displacement (lead keel) boat. In heavy winds, (caveate: and a fast sail servo) sheet sails in toward center of boat before gybing. You are reducing the amount of sail area offered to the wind which in turn will slow the boat slightly. If you wiggle the rudder, the main will gybe to opposite side of hull. Two things "could" happen - 1) you will continue dead downwind without problems and you can sheet out the main on the new side. 2) If you steer too far with rudder, a "broach" of sorts is possible, where the wind moves too far to the side, and the boat wants to round up ..... i.e. continue to turn to swing bow towards the wind.

Obviously #1 is great. If #2 starts to happen, this is where a good "fast" sail servo will help as you bear off further downwind and allow mainsail to swing out and boat pick up speed. It's a trick, and you have to be on your toes and possibly expecting it.

Going downwind in heavy air with sail completely out on one side, gybing and moving sail to completely out on the other is possible, can be hard on the rigging when sail and boom "slam" to the other side, but it is the fastest .... IF ... you can retain control of boat and steering. Also keep in mind the potential for the bow to go down and cause a pitchpole.

A suggestion..... for new sailors, practice sailing in a large circle as you will be sailing on all points of the wind, tacking and gybing. Once you master this, go the other direction, and then practice when the wind if up. If you continue to go "into irons" when tacking, you may be sheeting in too fast. Leave sails out, pick up speed and then sheet in and slowly begin to point up higher. Also for practice - sail downwind and practice gybing from side to side multiple times. Begin in medium air and then also practice in heavier winds.

Once you have boat control down in light, medium and heavy winds..... there is even more to learn about tuning. Lots to learn. As noted earlier, get a good book on "How to sail" and see if you can recreate different handling techniques. Starting, stopping, approaching a dock, backing up, etc.

Above all, keep practicing with boat handling so you can "guess" what will happen before it does - and then react. Good luck.

Dick
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 10:24 AM
Still showing up for breakfast
lilleyen's Avatar
Ontario Canada
Joined Mar 2009
1,100 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskrat Mike View Post
Had my Nirvana out last week on the river and got several acceptable photos. Gotta be attentive though, as the current is running at 2kts. A temporary calm and the boat is down river!
Ain't she pretty?
My favorite shots of Nirvanas are when reaching towards you.
Hmmm"on a reach"?
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 10:57 AM
Still showing up for breakfast
lilleyen's Avatar
Ontario Canada
Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick L. View Post
Jus some gybing experience that may help in heavier air.

Sailing downwind, you are moving as fast as the wind - no faster.....especially with a displacement (lead keel) boat. In heavy winds, (caveate: and a fast sail servo) sheet sails in toward center of boat before gybing. You are reducing the amount of sail area offered to the wind which in turn will slow the boat slightly. If you wiggle the rudder, the main will gybe to opposite side of hull. Two things "could" happen - 1) you will continue dead downwind without problems and you can sheet out the main on the new side. 2) If you steer too far with rudder, a "broach" of sorts is possible, where the wind moves too far to the side, and the boat wants to round up ..... i.e. continue to turn to swing bow towards the wind.

Obviously #1 is great. If #2 starts to happen, this is where a good "fast" sail servo will help as you bear off further downwind and allow mainsail to swing out and boat pick up speed. It's a trick, and you have to be on your toes and possibly expecting it.

Going downwind in heavy air with sail completely out on one side, gybing and moving sail to completely out on the other is possible, can be hard on the rigging when sail and boom "slam" to the other side, but it is the fastest .... IF ... you can retain control of boat and steering. Also keep in mind the potential for the bow to go down and cause a pitchpole.

A suggestion..... for new sailors, practice sailing in a large circle as you will be sailing on all points of the wind, tacking and gybing. Once you master this, go the other direction, and then practice when the wind if up. If you continue to go "into irons" when tacking, you may be sheeting in too fast. Leave sails out, pick up speed and then sheet in and slowly begin to point up higher. Also for practice - sail downwind and practice gybing from side to side multiple times. Begin in medium air and then also practice in heavier winds.

Once you have boat control down in light, medium and heavy winds..... there is even more to learn about tuning. Lots to learn. As noted earlier, get a good book on "How to sail" and see if you can recreate different handling techniques. Starting, stopping, approaching a dock, backing up, etc.

Above all, keep practicing with boat handling so you can "guess" what will happen before it does - and then react. Good luck.

Dick
Wow!
A lot to remember and practice.
I have found that (especially before I changed my running lines/sheets to Spectra), that I didn't have enough servo power to haul in my sail when running downwind before doing a gybe.
So what I do is basically what you said Dick, except I have to wait until I'm starting to come around so the wind is off the sail a bit, and my servo can actually pull the line in.
Takes a lot of muscle apparently. My servo is supposed to have a 138 Oz. of torque, but I think the dragging lines and friction were eating up some of that.
Maybe with my new setup, I can do better.
It's fun learning all this stuff and putting it to use on the water!

I found using the above (weak servo technique), if I pull the lines in as I turn and let them out again a bit slower, it's a bit more of a controlled slam to the other side of the hull by the boom, so it takes a bit of the crudeness out of the equation. This works when turning into the wind also. Haul the sheets in when the wind is off the sail. Sometimes that was the only way I could haul them in, by turning into the wind for a second to take the force off of the sail.

But timing is everything, you have to be quick about it and synchronized.
It takes practice to look like you know what you are doing out there.

I'm still a bit confused by the rules sheet published here by HH, that states the maximum servo torque allowed is 120 oz., but the Nirvana spec sheet says we have 138 oz.
One of the reasons I haven't upgraded to a great honking musclebound servo to date.
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 11:04 AM
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lilleyen's Avatar
Ontario Canada
Joined Mar 2009
1,100 Posts
Just remembered something.
My sail servo makes a noise like it's working frequently.
You know, the sound it makes when there is tension in the line.
But it's not really pulling, or not much anyway.
If I touch it in any way it stops the noise, so it's not binding anywhere that I can see.

Not doing any harm that I can see, except that it's probably draining battery power.
Is there a cure for this?
Does anyone else have this little problem?
My batteries seem to last quite a while anyway.
I use 2400 Mah NIMH rechargeables.
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 06:54 PM
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USA, IL, Champaign
Joined Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilleyen View Post
Just remembered something.
My sail servo makes a noise like it's working frequently.
You know, the sound it makes when there is tension in the line.
But it's not really pulling, or not much anyway.
If I touch it in any way it stops the noise, so it's not binding anywhere that I can see.

Not doing any harm that I can see, except that it's probably draining battery power.
Is there a cure for this?
Does anyone else have this little problem?
My batteries seem to last quite a while anyway.
I use 2400 Mah NIMH rechargeables.
Do you have digital servo? Digitals can buzz at times as it is constantly trying to get at the desired spot and tries to hold the spot. Digital servos are a bit more accurate and try to hold position much better than analog servos. The buzzing sound is nothing to worry about, it's normal.
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 07:11 PM
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USA, IL, Champaign
Joined Jul 2005
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Thanks to all of you posting the handling tips. I read about some of these before and along with putting in stick time learning as you go works for me. THE biggest challenge for me is tacking into high winds (13-20 mph). The Nirvana heels over severely at times. Pulling the sails in the center seems to make it worse. Seems to help by letting them out a bit. We do move the o-rings all the way back on the booms to help flatten the sails in high wind conditions but they are still not flat with the factory rigging. I would welcome any advice that works for tacking in high winds with minimal heeling over. Feel free to PM me if you are concerned about posting handling/speed secrets on a public forum
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 10:59 PM
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Ontario Canada
Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenex View Post
Do you have digital servo? Digitals can buzz at times as it is constantly trying to get at the desired spot and tries to hold the spot. Digital servos are a bit more accurate and try to hold position much better than analog servos. The buzzing sound is nothing to worry about, it's normal.
I would think the original Nirvana servos are analog. Anyone know for sure?
That's what I have in there, I only changed the RX.
The noise was there even before that though.
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Old Oct 06, 2010, 11:32 PM
Boomer1
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United States, CA, Temecula
Joined Sep 2009
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Phoenex,
I would suggest that a Nirvana is best sailed in it's orginal state, in winds less than 15mph. Most similar size RC Sailboats will be heeled over and get knocked down in winds above 10mph as will a Nirvana.
Having said that, it can be done, but in the kind of winds, they are really getting over powered.
It has been my experience that most folks over estimate how fast the wind is blowing. I have an anemometer to measure actual wind velocity when I am sailing. 20 mph is one heck of a heavy wind to sail these little guys in, let alone being able to get in and out of the water without breaking something.

lilleyen
Servos will chatter if the lines are two tight. You can adjust your trim setting to see if that can fix that. If you are using a 27ghz radio, they are very susceptible to interference, and will make noise and chatter when an errant signal is interfering with your signal. When I got my first Nirvana which came with a 27ghz radio. It worked fine for a while, until one day when I was sailing by myself in a nice steady wind, as I am on a beautiful run across the lake, when my Nirvana hangs a hard right heading straight for the rock hard shoreline. My attempts to control my boat did nothing, what ever the interference was, it was stronger than my radio signal. That was the last time I used that radio. Got a 2.4ghz

I am concerned about your sail servo's not being able to pull the sails in. I have never had an issue with a Nirvana sail servo. They are very strong metal gear servos. I have used them on larger sailboats without issues.
Might check with the manufacturer about a warranty claim.

If you need a new one, I got one.
Boomer
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Old Oct 07, 2010, 06:40 AM
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Millbrook, Alabama
Joined Jun 2004
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The stock sail servos on all of our boats are pretty weak out of the box. They will not pull in against any wind over 5 mph....in other words if you are running with the wind with the sails out and try to pull them before making a turn...forget it. I learned to pull them in the middle of the turn, letting the wind be your friend. I also upgraded my sail servo to the max recommended/legal as noted early on in this thread. Also, this boat has a bad tendency to go nose down (submarine) in a strong wind while running with it. Some of the guys use smaller sails and/or lifting rig to help with that...I don't run in that heavy of a wind and play with my other boats instead. I've seen too many boats get knocked off stands and had some of my rigging broke while on shore in those conditions.
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Old Oct 07, 2010, 03:46 PM
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lilleyen's Avatar
Ontario Canada
Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer1 View Post
Phoenex,
snippedlilleyen
Servos will chatter if the lines are two tight. You can adjust your trim setting to see if that can fix that. If you are using a 27ghz radio, they are very susceptible to interference, and will make noise and chatter when an errant signal is interfering with your signal. When I got my first Nirvana which came with a 27ghz radio. It worked fine for a while, until one day when I was sailing by myself in a nice steady wind, as I am on a beautiful run across the lake, when my Nirvana hangs a hard right heading straight for the rock hard shoreline. My attempts to control my boat did nothing, what ever the interference was, it was stronger than my radio signal. That was the last time I used that radio. Got a 2.4ghz

I am concerned about your sail servo's not being able to pull the sails in. I have never had an issue with a Nirvana sail servo. They are very strong metal gear servos. I have used them on larger sailboats without issues.
Might check with the manufacturer about a warranty claim.

If you need a new one, I got one.
Boomer
Thanks Boomer,

Can't be that the sheets are too tight, it does this even on the bench with no tension on the line at all.
And I'm with you on the radio thing, put a 2.4 RX in last week, although I've had no real problems with the 27 up to date. Of course I used to sail where there weren't any other sailors about.
I guess even a kids race car would do it though eh!

I remember the chattering on my 72 radio if I turned on the Rx first in my old glider.
It's not like that, more of a murmur, no actuall hunting.
Not really doing anything, just making a noise.
It stops if I touch it gently, or move it with the Tx stick just a little.

As for the servo pulling in the lines agains the wind, I'm hoping the new Spectra lines and the fishing swivel sheet guides will take a lot of friction out of the equation, and that should give the servo more pulling power I would think.
We'll see!
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Old Oct 07, 2010, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoghappy View Post
The stock sail servos on all of our boats are pretty weak out of the box. They will not pull in against any wind over 5 mph....in other words if you are running with the wind with the sails out and try to pull them before making a turn...forget it. I learned to pull them in the middle of the turn, letting the wind be your friend. I also upgraded my sail servo to the max recommended/legal as noted early on in this thread. Also, this boat has a bad tendency to go nose down (submarine) in a strong wind while running with it. Some of the guys use smaller sails and/or lifting rig to help with that...I don't run in that heavy of a wind and play with my other boats instead. I've seen too many boats get knocked off stands and had some of my rigging broke while on shore in those conditions.
Hi HH,

The spec sheet published somewhere here says the NII stock servo hauls 138 oz.
That's right up there with some of the recommended replacement servos in the list you put in one of your posts.
But I though I read somewhere that the rules only allow 120 oz.

Wassup with that!!??
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Old Oct 07, 2010, 05:03 PM
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Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
2,186 Posts
Try having wife stand near boat (on shore) and move a good distance away from the boat and see if servo still buzzes. My 27 mHz does the "buzz thing" when I'm working on sheeting setups and radio is right next to the boat.
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Old Oct 08, 2010, 08:02 AM
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Millbrook, Alabama
Joined Jun 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilleyen View Post
Hi HH,

The spec sheet published somewhere here says the NII stock servo hauls 138 oz.
That's right up there with some of the recommended replacement servos in the list you put in one of your posts.
But I though I read somewhere that the rules only allow 120 oz.

Wassup with that!!??
Thanks for bringing that up....if you are refering to page 1 in this thread that is old info and the the 138oz servo was done by a club out in Calif. and may not of been within the rules at that time. However....it gets even more interesting....I just went out to the AMYA rules and the Official Rules state the sail servo may not exceed….

Modifications/Clarification to Racing Rules as of 04/01/08

D.4.1 The sail servo may not exceed 125 oz. in. torque rating at 4.8 volts.

Only sail arm winches are authorized


The problem is…..the stock Nirvana II comes with a 165 oz. in. servo in the form of the MEGATECH NIRVANA II FX220MG - High Torque Servo

Here's the specs on that servo:

http://www.servodatabase.com/servo/megatech/fx220mg

I don't know if that is the same servo that has always been in this boat but I have fired off a letter to Steve Lang to see if he can clarify this.

I run a weaker Hitec HS-645MG - Ultra Torque Metal Gear 106.9 oz servo and have no problems except in extreme conditions. If the stock servo is 165 oz. as stated, it should be way more than strong enough for most normal weather conditions.
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