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Old Dec 24, 2007, 09:28 PM
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 10:29 PM
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Stratford Sikorsky, Connecticut, United States
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Karl love the enthusiasm, keep it up.

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Old Dec 25, 2007, 03:46 AM
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Wow, it sounds perfect! Keep working on it !
Is the water based adhesive somehow part of the covering? or is it intended for a different use?

Only thing I thought of is fruit leather , but it's not that cheap, or come in 200 feet rolls. Just ants to worry about.

I have two foamys I havn't built cause I hate the spackle/goop/tape/goop//covering/goop/ process. I just keep putting the builds off.
Balsa/fiberglass/kevlar/carbon/epoxy,all seem easier to work with than foam to me.

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Old Dec 25, 2007, 10:02 AM
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Golden, Colorado
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Well guys-
I have a dilema, I've worked hard and spent some $$$ doing all kinds of research on EVERYTHING from Adhesives - Zip lock baggies. It has been fun and honestly a labor of love but, there are a few reasons that I have worked extra hard on this aside from the labor of love.
1) I KNOW fun easy building makes BETTER ships and motivates builders to "DO MORE, MAKE THEM EVEN BETTER". Like the Existing Predator kits. The builders WANT to stay at the table and build/innovate VS that feeling of a LONG build where you go, "OMG good enough, that'll do, I'm outa here!!!!" Then you see their faces on the slope with their DOUBLE SOUPED up ship RIPPING hard and YOU KNOW that feeling is even better then the "I just built a GREAT ship feeling!" its now "my ship is the BADEST EVER!"

2) I had something to prove! After presenting someone else's proto design, NOT as my own design. That was a HUGE mistake anyway since it was approaching knock-off status, it created MANY hard feelings for reasons I'd rather LEAVE IN THE PAST FOREVER! and Urge others to either show support or just mind their own business into the future. Each pilot can make up his own mind on who deserves and has earned his business/support. Public slander on the net is for COWARDS and I WELCOME personal exchanges vs hiding behind a keyboard ALL THE TIME. If I get slammed AGAIN, my business gets hurt, I'm upset and I will NOT keep a job that makes me pull my hair out while going broke. A part of me just wanted to say, "LATER" and just keep this ALL to myself forever after I was repeatedly personally attacked nationally on this forum. Despite that, I decided it just would not be right to leave LOTS of great pilots, friends/supporters to continue NEEDLESS toil with CRAP A KOATS that do not even stick to foam AT ALL. Bust out the TOXIC CHEMICALS BRO, its the ONLY way to get this stuff to stick! OMG. Those days are OVER for me. Well a bit of goop here and there maybe but that's it.
3) I want this thing to turn into a REAL JOB! I have worked hard, I can design, kit, build and fly foamies with the best of them and at this point I think I've made MANY contributions to our specific little hobby. I also believe that my flying skills and enthusiasm have helped and, I think this new covering will do MUCH more of the same!!!! It is just TOO EASY! No tape, cool, tough, stiff spars. . . . A kit that COMES with covering you can apply with Mom's iron!!!! and even a template to cut it out for a NO BRAINER perfect covering job drawn by a PRO! I am an innovator and surviver. I told JOe years ago that, "I never give up and I should not be underestimated." I'll be in Cali with a few SWEET COVERED ONE of a KIND DS SLEDS and we can all judge for ourselves! insert evil laugh!!! Maybe some combat/DS combat too (with MORE new fighter wings of mine in the works. . . hint hint???)

I want to help and nurture the 100s of frienships I've established here and what I ask for in return is you respect and support.
Here's the bottom line: I need to buy 200 ft of ANY given weight of covering minimum. I am quite sure that you all will find this stuff all on your own now that it is clear, it IS OUT THERE! I did the research and, I spent the $$$ blindly to find it. All I can hope is that my friends would rather support me then go blindly spent their $$$ and effectively chop me down while reinventing the wheel themselves. It took me weeks to just try 6 kinds, to ship 1 or 2, test each in application, duribility, weights and stiffnesses and ponyed up for all the foam kits to do it on and some of it failed too . I found that using combonations of the stuff works best for various applications. . . Please help me do my job, show minor support and I'll sell this stuff to you guys for a GREAT price! AND you'll have acces to ALL my research AND you can just buy 12ft for your MONSTER ship VS 200ft and shipping! I'll do great volume deals if you fall in love too! YOU WILL! I'm thinking 50 to 75 cents a sq ft. depending on the manufacturing cost of the covering and cheaper for volume. That's like $15 for an INSAIN tough covered 60", way better then what we're using now, it actually sticks ALL BY ITSELF! can be thin gooped, spray painted, SMASHED into solid rock. . . cheaper better AND easier then what we're doing NOW! It starts out totally clear and that makes it WAY cool for finding gear and making cutouts perfect!
Please support my research effort, I'll ship ANY length at the prices above if you want to sample or even if you want me to help you to "cut me out" by sending samples, I will. I just hope for this price and all my work you'll understand and have the honor to support efforts to IMPROVE our hobby! You can see by the prices, I will not be greedy; I just want this job and your support.
I am also cutting templates for my first 60" Balistic flying speedwing that I will be offering to the public this spring. I want one round of independent testing by some of my main homies then if that passes its out there. I am going to continue variations on this ship but, so far it has been my ALL TIME FAVORITE SHIP EVER in the speed wing catagory BY FAR! So I feel good about letting this ship out a bit early despite my confidece that I can improve it further! It has been faster then all foam 60"ers I've flown with to date and lighter too at 43ozs, that allows it to stay up AND hold up better to "Rough Landings" as well! The kit will be cheaper, easier, faster, more complete AND COME WITH COVERING! Did I mention NICE directions?
Please Brothers, help me HELP YOU!

Merry Christmas, Karl
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Old Dec 25, 2007, 11:23 AM
Macgyver24 is offline
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You've got my support! I sent a PM before reading this last post.

We need to support all of small kit builders and suppliers. If we don't we'll have to scratch build everything and learn it all the hard way.

Unfortunately I don't have the time.

Merry Christmas.
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Old Dec 25, 2007, 11:29 AM
Crashaholic is offline
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Karl, is it not the stuff I linked to above? The self adhesive stuff (the pressure sensitive stuff) that is used for book covers, etc (Like this guy used and here)? If I remember from my elementry school days, you can even get it tinted. I think you will still need to soak goop into the foam in the areas like leading edges and noses so that the foam doesnt turn into popcorn. Film covering doesnt protect that.

If not, cant wait to see what you came up with!
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Last edited by Crashaholic; Dec 25, 2007 at 12:15 PM. Reason: added links
Old Dec 25, 2007, 12:32 PM
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Ireland, County Kerry, Kerry
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Crash, I've also looked with longing at that type of stuff, but clearly there are so many different makes and variations of these products out there, that it would take an enormous amount of testing and experimentation to find the most suitable product for our own use. It seems that that is exactly what the Predator has in fact done, at his own expense, so I'm certainly in to supporting him, rather than trying to reinvent the whole thing again!

I also have a couple of foamy kits waiting patiently to be built, and would kill for a method that is fast, easy, and gives a good finish/result!

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Old Dec 25, 2007, 12:45 PM
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Karl, I'll be out on the front range on the 4th-6th for a company Christmas party, Dale will be giving me money for a Bee kit, and I want to pick up quite a bit of this new stuff for bee covering (I've still got the two from Glacier to build) and covering my Guppy (maybe even fixing my LJ 60) (so I'll need quite a bit as I want extra for down the pike.

Will you be around then to meet up and pick up stuff?

And let me know how much I need and how much money to bring.

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Old Dec 25, 2007, 06:37 PM
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That post on the doculam WAS my original inspiration for the long ensuing search that I did. I looked DIRECTLY at that stuff but, it just seems to light as a stand alone covering. Anyway, I'd rather not play 20 questions to hose myself, just let me help you or you too can reinvent the wheel! At 50 cents a sq ft. the choice is obvious I think!
I've got many orders just since this morning, thanks guys! I will start working on filling these orders tomorrow morning but, before I do, I want to give you all a basic idea about the 4 kinds of covering I found to be the best; they are in two basic categories. Dimensionally stable and Not Dimensionally stable. The key difference is weather you value VERY EASY application even on compound curves (thicker but very similar to what your using now) and a VERY STIFF finished product, then you want either the HEAVY or LIGHT weight Balisti-cover depending on your project and how much covering weight it can tolerate. If you want INSAIN STIFFNESS and total dimensional stability then you want the PLASTIC PLY Balisti-cover. This also comes in 2 weights and is more complex to apply since it WILL NOT conform to ANY LITTLE compound curviness at all without rippling to compensate for it's un-natural shape. For little spots like wing tips and flying wing noses you can pleat the heck out of it and get it down nice but it is more work and the final product comes out a lot like a crunchie if done well! I do think gooping and/or electrical tape covering these pleated areas is best and should be done anyway regardless of what covering you use. Ive always done Bees this way. This plastic ply variety needs to be applied as if you really were sheeting the wing with ply wood! EACH foam wing panel will need its own ply panel if you want this stuff to lay down like GLASS! For that reason I think it is IDEAL for flying wings, my specialty, though thin conventional wings could be even bigger beneficiaries JACK!!!
When I first got this stuff I figured I'd goofed, at almost .5mm thick and kind of tough to bend tightly around a LE! I was worried but innovative! I ended up creasing the plastic ply with a yard stick in a PERFECTLY straight line and then working that into a full blown fold. Then I placed the inside of the fold over the LE of my wing 3/4" past the LE min. on the short side, GREAT PLACE FOR EXTRA ARMOUR AS WELL!). THEN I started ironing it down DIRECTLY onto the very front of the LE evenly roasting it down that line and then EVENLY rolling and roasting it around the LE, both side at once. If you do just one side and THEN the other you'll get bit of an arc in your LE with the first side to be adhered becoming convex. (Do not ask me how I know this, LOL) I really like to use a REAL cloths iron for this stuff since it stays hot WAY BETTER, covers WAY more area and is much easier NOT to contort, flex, bend, or pinch the foam. With a little headed iron that focuses the force on the foam more, warping foam into some compound curve shape is easier, then OH #$%@%. This is true of all coverings but much more important to avoid if you are using this stuff! Anyway, once the LE is all adhered and done symmetrically the rest is pretty easy. It will not be wrinkling or folding by itself AT ALL. Just smoothly roast it down always working away from your stating point, the LE, to keep it from bubbling between two different spots you fried down separately, OPPS. The plastic ply is in two weights as well.
The Ply-ables

Balisti-Cover Light.......11gm/sq ft Very similar to monokoat but actually sticks to RAW cut EPP foam and best for light duty applications! I'll bet this would even be nice for a NAKED alula and save all tape and most of the adhesive weight! Quite light and not well suited for crashing or HIGH wing loading. I do not use it much due to this and the fact that I generally like heavier ships.

Balisti-Cover Heavy.....24gm/sq ft Strong stiff but reasonably pliable. All the ships I built with fuses (lots of compound curves) were done using this stuff! I also covered a Bee, the NAKED BEE with JUST this stuff, no tape, goop. . . and it was 20 OZS RTF and perfectly balanced using a 5 cell AAA just to give you an idea, if you have the huevos to go NAKED with this stuff. So far no ass cracks as yet and a couple big diggers for early test reports! All my Balistics wear this stuff (1st stuff I tested) over a standard combat wing strapping tape pattern using 3" heavy tape, Ming/windrider Bee tape. I have NEVER seen a 48" wing, my Balistic 48", survive the abuse this one has taken. 2 HUGE solid rock head-ons AT SPEED. No gear damage and only some crumpled covering that ironed out WELL. On a sharp rock hitting at mach 2 I did get a small cut/dent in the LE. I cut a little patch, roasted it on the LE, squirted some PU in the dent/slit and then ironed down the rest. Patch conformed perfect to the LE shape and PU foamed to fill and it was as good as new! I doubt I really need to even fill it but it was just too easy not to!

The stiffies

Plastic Ply Balisti-cover light. . 20gm/sq ft I think this may well be the best stuff for the most applications, totally dimensionally stable, easy to apply without creasing but LOTS of pleating on ANY/EVERY compound curve. VERY impressive stiffness for the weight/thickness. I built a WW Raider with this stuff, I call it the BONGO DRUM. it has a 4 X 2/3 AA battery (SMALL LIGHT BATTERY for a Raider). AGAIN balanced off the bench with NO TAPE or GOOP AUW 21OZS. Clearly this variety could make an AWESOME tough light stiff fighter wing. (gee, I wonder what I should work on next???) I used it as live hinges on this build too and, it was TOO stiff! The ship does fly well anyway but it is clear that the servos are struggling and the elevons twisting. I've done lots of OTHER testing like this too and when my new kits come out you'll see more COOL, EASY, FAST to BUILD moves like this that DID WORK WELL!


Plastic Ply Balisti-Cover BURRLY...29gm/sq ft This stuff named ITSELF with its OBVIOUS application characteristics. Yes, it scared me at first but I folded it into submission and then ROASTED it down HARD! A bit harder to apply but, if you want this stuff I'm assuming you know what you're doing. I have only built one wing with this stuff so far and ONLY the wing, a fuse would be HELL or impossible. I did that Thunderbird wing and WOW! EXTREME crazy stiff and actually too light with out goop or tape. It's CRAZY, I'd WAY rather add ALL my weight as an exsoskeleton/armour, by far the most efficient use as opposed it internal stiffeners. So efficient, in fact, my New Thunderbird is WAY WAY stiffer then it is heavy @ 42OZS and I KNOW I'll be adding some LEAD there even with the BURRY cover! Again NO tape or GOOP at all associated with that covering job, next time I will thin goop these cores heavily and add a few pieces of full span fiber tape just to get MORE weight that actually has more benefit then lead! That ship, at the light weight, went 120MPH yesterday on radar. I think this stuff could be AMAZING on higher aspect ratio wings too in conjunction with the new spar system on 1.9# foam I think we will be seeing some COMPLETELY new kinds of builds on THIN foam wings. Even with lighter foam I have already engineered a slightly modified spar to make it JUST as rigid with a tad more work.

Last, all this stuff has the same heat activated liquefying adhesive on it. It activates at about 210F but, the heavier the covering the longer it takes for the heat to get through the covering! Do a bit of scrap testing and if your still nervous keep the iron under 250F and just go slow. I crank mine up to around 300F and KEEP MOVING! If you fall asleep youll DEFINITELY have a NEW turbulator in the shape of an Iron as it sinks right through the MELTING foam! The final thing to look for is the actual look of the porosity of the foam through the covering. I thought, at first, I was actually barely melting the foam to the covering, I guess I really may have done that BUT, the liquid adhesive filling the pores is now what I think Im seeing! Look for that new creamier look to the pores and that is the adhesive sinking in and grabbing on!

That's ALL I know at this point!!!! I am making NO warranties and DEFINITELY no guarantees! I am still in testing and if you want to join in I'm happy to set you up. So far this is ALL JUST TALK!!! Caveat Emptor or how ever you spell Latin!!! The ONLY guarantee I will make is that ALL my new ship offerings WILL be tested COMPLETELY and all components there in.
Judging weather to use strapping tape or not will be trial and error for most. Judging the associated balancing points is tricky with all new covering, less tape, no goop. . . Please consider it all and take responsibility for your choices. I was lucky and was nailing Proto CG's right and left but, after the first proto, experience was on my side. That said, this stuff I'm offering HAS WORKED GREAT for me so far and, I have a HARD time even imagining using anything else. I'm totally spoiled after building 9 ships with this stuff and the worst of it. I could only get color under the covering using tinted goop. Paint or even sharpie on the foam blocked the adhesive but, spray paint on the OUTSIDE works GREAT and is WAY EASIER to get a super cool look then by using covering panels anyway but, the paint will scratch if you pound rock, who knew? Better then shredding in my opinion! I will be talking to the manufacturer about tinting this week! Your feed back on this topic, coloring, is NEEDED! Personally, if I could get a flying turd to go 200MPH AND I could see it, that would be fine with me! I'm a performance kind of guy. The ship ALWAYS looks cool if it's rippin hard, in my opinion!
I hope these specs help you guys make the best picks! So ya, Ive done a bit of testing with this stuff already and you can bet MY new ships, JOe, will be ALL my design and I will leave NO STONE unturned to make them THE BEST as I ALWAYS DO. I show respect for my friends and peers and expect the same in return.
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Old Dec 25, 2007, 07:34 PM
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USA, HI, Makawao
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I am intrigued...

What's the DONK resiliency? I've seen a number of mylar-coated EPP wings that got crease-y from donks - LEs, wingtips.

And how do we order some? (what's the width of the per foot cost?)

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Old Dec 25, 2007, 08:12 PM
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I'll buy some, I need to recover a moth, hp and a weasel. I'll PM you...
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Old Dec 25, 2007, 08:16 PM
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and it will it give us 10min abs too!
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Old Dec 25, 2007, 09:29 PM
me_wantee is offline
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Does it come with a free set of steak knives?
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Old Dec 25, 2007, 10:09 PM
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Wow, Sounds promising. I know there is the perfect heat shrink covering for foam out there, and I am so tired of using the old school stuff made for wood. Keep up the search you guys, and keep us informed. Just imagine a perfect foam covering: no more tape, no more spray, more elastic but strong. I would be a beautiful thing.
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Old Dec 25, 2007, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by me_wantee
Does it come with a free set of steak knives?
Only if you order a FULL ROLL....and pay shipping.
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