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Old Jan 30, 2008, 11:58 AM
The Predator
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I try to stay around 210-220F LOW setting on the REAL iron. You can definitely go hotter for the thicker stuff just to more quickly overcome it's insualting properties but if you get caught napping with that iron in one place, OPPS! and I also found ANY foam melt action, even if it does not really mess up the airfoil, still hurts adhesion. I just move slow with my BIG iron at 220 and it is WAY faster then the little iron on high and struggling to keep hot. The little guy can be handy for some tight spots though.
Oh boy, clean the girlie's iron well. Sometimes a bit of covering adhesive gets squirted out the side of the covering and onto the iron! No NOOKY THEN! Oh MAN! get cleaning for god's sake; you'll need a good nights sleep, no?
Maybe too late for wrinkles, I go for'em right during install but, your best bet is to heat the whole area up and then pull the covering away from the wrinkles with the iron GENTLY. To much force/pressure will cup the heated area if the foam sqwishes much at all. The drag it to an edge where you'll trim it up nice. I DEFINITLY found that practice helps LOTS to get perfection and the conforming Balisti-cover heavy is VERY EASY, easier then ANY covering I think. That stiff stuff is way stiffer for better and for worse. Mainly for better once you get a process going!
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 07:09 AM
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Had to post this seperate to find it. I paraphrased it below. I did my best not to take anything out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Predator
Crash-
That post on the doculam WAS my original inspiration for the long ensuing search that I did. I looked DIRECTLY at that stuff but, it just seems to light as a stand alone covering. Anyway, I'd rather not play 20 questions to hose myself, just let me help you or you too can reinvent the wheel! At 50 cents a sq ft. the choice is obvious I think!
I've got many orders just since this morning, thanks guys! I will start working on filling these orders tomorrow morning but, before I do, I want to give you all a basic idea about the 4 kinds of covering I found to be the best; they are in two basic categories. Dimensionally stable and Not Dimensionally stable. The key difference is weather you value VERY EASY application even on compound curves (thicker but very similar to what your using now) and a VERY STIFF finished product, then you want either the HEAVY or LIGHT weight Balisti-cover depending on your project and how much covering weight it can tolerate. If you want INSAIN STIFFNESS and total dimensional stability then you want the PLASTIC PLY Balisti-cover. This also comes in 2 weights and is more complex to apply since it WILL NOT conform to ANY LITTLE compound curviness at all without rippling to compensate for it's un-natural shape. For little spots like wing tips and flying wing noses you can pleat the heck out of it and get it down nice but it is more work and the final product comes out a lot like a crunchie if done well! I do think gooping and/or electrical tape covering these pleated areas is best and should be done anyway regardless of what covering you use. Iíve always done Bees this way. This plastic ply variety needs to be applied as if you really were sheeting the wing with ply wood! EACH foam wing panel will need its own ply panel if you want this stuff to lay down like GLASS! For that reason I think it is IDEAL for flying wings, my specialty, though thin conventional wings could be even bigger beneficiaries JACK!!!
When I first got this stuff I figured I'd goofed, at almost .5mm thick and kind of tough to bend tightly around a LE! I was worried but innovative! I ended up creasing the plastic ply with a yard stick in a PERFECTLY straight line and then working that into a full blown fold. Then I placed the inside of the fold over the LE of my wing 3/4" past the LE min. on the short side, GREAT PLACE FOR EXTRA ARMOUR AS WELL!). THEN I started ironing it down DIRECTLY onto the very front of the LE evenly roasting it down that line and then EVENLY rolling and roasting it around the LE, both side at once. If you do just one side and THEN the other you'll get bit of an arc in your LE with the first side to be adhered becoming convex. (Do not ask me how I know this, LOL) I really like to use a REAL cloths iron for this stuff since it stays hot WAY BETTER, covers WAY more area and is much easier NOT to contort, flex, bend, or pinch the foam. With a little headed iron that focuses the force on the foam more, warping foam into some compound curve shape is easier, then OH #$%@%. This is true of all coverings but much more important to avoid if you are using this stuff! Anyway, once the LE is all adhered and done symmetrically the rest is pretty easy. It will not be wrinkling or folding by itself AT ALL. Just smoothly roast it down always working away from your stating point, the LE, to keep it from bubbling between two different spots you fried down separately, OPPS. The plastic ply is in two weights as well.
The Ply-ables

Balisti-Cover Light.......11gm/sq ft Very similar to monokoat but actually sticks to RAW cut EPP foam and best for light duty applications! I'll bet this would even be nice for a NAKED alula and save all tape and most of the adhesive weight! Quite light and not well suited for crashing or HIGH wing loading. I do not use it much due to this and the fact that I generally like heavier ships.

Balisti-Cover Heavy.....24gm/sq ft Strong stiff but reasonably pliable. All the ships I built with fuses (lots of compound curves) were done using this stuff! I also covered a Bee, the NAKED BEE with JUST this stuff, no tape, goop. . . and it was 20 OZS RTF and perfectly balanced using a 5 cell AAA just to give you an idea, if you have the huevos to go NAKED with this stuff. So far no ass cracks as yet and a couple big diggers for early test reports! All my Balistics wear this stuff (1st stuff I tested) over a standard combat wing strapping tape pattern using 3" heavy tape, Ming/windrider Bee tape. I have NEVER seen a 48" wing, my Balistic 48", survive the abuse this one has taken. 2 HUGE solid rock head-onís AT SPEED. No gear damage and only some crumpled covering that ironed out WELL. On a sharp rock hitting at mach 2 I did get a small cut/dent in the LE. I cut a little patch, Ĺ roasted it on the LE, squirted some PU in the dent/slit and then ironed down the rest. Patch conformed perfect to the LE shape and PU foamed to fill and it was as good as new! I doubt I really need to even fill it but it was just too easy not to!

The stiffies


Plastic Ply Balisti-cover light. . 20gm/sq ft I think this may well be the best stuff for the most applications, totally dimensionally stable, easy to apply without creasing but LOTS of pleating on ANY/EVERY compound curve. VERY impressive stiffness for the weight/thickness. I built a WW Raider with this stuff, I call it the BONGO DRUM. it has a 4 X 2/3 AA battery (SMALL LIGHT BATTERY for a Raider). AGAIN balanced off the bench with NO TAPE or GOOP AUW 21OZS. Clearly this variety could make an AWESOME tough light stiff fighter wing. (gee, I wonder what I should work on next???) I used it as live hinges on this build too and, it was TOO stiff! The ship does fly well anyway but it is clear that the servos are struggling and the elevons twisting. I've done lots of OTHER testing like this too and when my new kits come out you'll see more COOL, EASY, FAST to BUILD moves like this that DID WORK WELL!

AND MY FAVORITE

Plastic Ply Balisti-Cover BURRLY...29gm/sq ft This stuff named ITSELF with its OBVIOUS application characteristics. Yes, it scared me at first but I folded it into submission and then ROASTED it down HARD! A bit harder to apply but, if you want this stuff I'm assuming you know what you're doing. I have only built one wing with this stuff so far and ONLY the wing, a fuse would be HELL or impossible. I did that Thunderbird wing and WOW! EXTREME crazy stiff and actually too light with out goop or tape. It's CRAZY, I'd WAY rather add ALL my weight as an exsoskeleton/armour, by far the most efficient use as opposed it internal stiffeners. So efficient, in fact, my New Thunderbird is WAY WAY stiffer then it is heavy @ 42OZS and I KNOW I'll be adding some LEAD there even with the BURRY cover! Again NO tape or GOOP at all associated with that covering job, next time I will thin goop these cores heavily and add a few pieces of full span fiber tape just to get MORE weight that actually has more benefit then lead! That ship, at the light weight, went 120MPH yesterday on radar. I think this stuff could be AMAZING on higher aspect ratio wings too in conjunction with the new spar system on 1.9# foam I think we will be seeing some COMPLETELY new kinds of builds on THIN foam wings. Even with lighter foam I have already engineered a slightly modified spar to make it JUST as rigid with a tad more work.

Last, all this stuff has the same heat activated liquefying adhesive on it. It activates at about 210F but, the heavier the covering the longer it takes for the heat to get through the covering! Do a bit of scrap testing and if your still nervous keep the iron under 250F and just go slow. I crank mine up to around 300F and KEEP MOVING! If you fall asleep youíll DEFINITELY have a NEW turbulator in the shape of an Iron as it sinks right through the MELTING foam! The final thing to look for is the actual look of the porosity of the foam through the covering. I thought, at first, I was actually barely melting the foam to the covering, I guess I really may have done that BUT, the liquid adhesive filling the pores is now what I think Iím seeing! Look for that new creamier look to the pores and that is the adhesive sinking in and grabbing on!

That's ALL I know at this point!!!! I am making NO warranties and DEFINITELY no guarantees! I am still in testing and if you want to join in I'm happy to set you up. So far this is ALL JUST TALK!!! Caveat Emptor or how ever you spell Latin!!! The ONLY guarantee I will make is that ALL my new ship offerings WILL be tested COMPLETELY and all components there in.
Judging weather to use strapping tape or not will be trial and error for most. Judging the associated balancing points is tricky with all new covering, less tape, no goop. . . Please consider it all and take responsibility for your choices. I was lucky and was nailing Proto CG's right and left but, after the first proto, experience was on my side. That said, this stuff I'm offering HAS WORKED GREAT for me so far and, I have a HARD time even imagining using anything else. I'm totally spoiled after building 9 ships with this stuff and the worst of it. I could only get color under the covering using tinted goop. Paint or even sharpie on the foam blocked the adhesive but, spray paint on the OUTSIDE works GREAT and is WAY EASIER to get a super cool look then by using covering panels anyway but, the paint will scratch if you pound rock, who knew? Better then shredding in my opinion! I will be talking to the manufacturer about tinting this week! Your feed back on this topic, coloring, is NEEDED! Personally, if I could get a flying turd to go 200MPH AND I could see it, that would be fine with me! I'm a performance kind of guy. The ship ALWAYS looks cool if it's rippíin hard, in my opinion!
I hope these specs help you guys make the best picks! So ya, Iíve done a bit of testing with this stuff already and you can bet MY new ships, JOe, will be ALL my design and I will leave NO STONE unturned to make them THE BEST as I ALWAYS DO. I show respect for my friends and peers and expect the same in return.
There are two basic categories; Dimensionally stable and Not Dimensionally stable. The key difference is VERY EASY application even on compound curve and a VERY STIFF finished product, either the HEAVY or LIGHT weight Balisti-cover, depending on your project and how much covering weight it can tolerate.

The Ply-ables

Balisti-Cover Light.......11gm/sq ft Very similar to Monokote but actually sticks to RAW cut EPP foam and best for light duty applications! Quite light and not well suited for crashing or HIGH wing loading. I do not use it much due to this and the fact that I generally like heavier ships.

Balisti-Cover Heavy.....24gm/sq ft Strong stiff but reasonably pliable. All the ships I built with fuses (lots of compound curves) were done using this stuff!

The stiffies

If you want STIFFNESS and dimensional stability then you want the PLASTIC PLY Balisti-cover. This also comes in 2 weights and it WILL NOT conform to ANY compound curve. This plastic ply variety needs to be applied as if you were sheeting the wing with plywood! EACH foam wing panel will need its own ply panel if you want this stuff to lay down.

At almost .5mm thick and kind of tough to bend tightly around a LE! I ended up creasing the plastic ply with a yard stick in a PERFECTLY straight line and then working that into a full blown fold. Then I placed the inside of the fold over the LE of my wing 3/4" past the LE min. on the short side, GREAT PLACE FOR EXTRA ARMOUR AS WELL!). THEN I started ironing it down DIRECTLY onto the very front of the LE evenly roasting it down that line and then EVENLY rolling and roasting it around the LE, both side at once. If you do just one side and THEN the other you'll get an arc in your LE with the first side to be adhered becoming convex.

I really like to use a REAL cloths iron for this stuff since it stays hot BETTER, covers more area and is much easier NOT to contort, flex, bend, or pinch the foam. With a little iron that focuses the force on the foam, warping foam into some compound curve shape is easier. This is true of all coverings but much more important to avoid if you are using this stuff! Once the LE is all adhered and done symmetrically the rest is pretty easy. It will not be wrinkling or folding by itself. Just smoothly roast it down always working away from your stating point, the LE, to keep it from bubbling between two different spots you fried down separately, OPPS.


Plastic Ply Balisti-cover light. . 20gm/sq ft I think the best stuff for the most applications, dimensionally stable, easy to apply without creasing but LOTS of pleating on ANY/EVERY compound curve. Clearly this variety could make an AWESOME tough light stiff fighter wing. I used it as live hinges on this build too and, it was TOO stiff!

AND MY FAVORITE

Plastic Ply Balisti-Cover BURRLY...29gm/sq ft . A bit harder to apply. I have only built one wing with this stuff so far and ONLY the wing. NO tape or GOOP at all associated with that covering job, next time I will thin goop these cores heavily and add a few pieces of full span fiber tape just to get MORE weight!

Last, all this stuff has the same heat activated liquefying adhesive on it. It activates at about 210F but, the heavier the covering the longer it takes for the heat to get through the covering! Do a bit of scrap testing and if youíre still nervous keep the iron under 250F and just go slow. I crank mine up to around 300F and KEEP MOVING! The final thing to look for is the actual look of the porosity of the foam through the covering.

That's ALL I know at this point!!!! I am making NO warranties and DEFINITELY no guarantees! I am still in testing and if you want to join in I'm happy to set you up. So far this is ALL JUST TALK!!! Caveat Emptor or however you spell Latin!!!

Judging whether to use strapping tape or not will be trial and error for most. Judging the associated balancing points is tricky with all new covering, less tape, no goop. . . Please consider it all and take responsibility for your choices.. This stuff I'm offering HAS WORKED GREAT for me.

I could only get color under the covering using tinted goop. Paint or even sharpie on the foam blocked the adhesive. Spray paint on the OUTSIDE works but the paint will scratch if you pound rock. I will be talking to the manufacturer about tinting this week! Your feedback on this topic, coloring, is NEEDED!

I hope these specs help you guys make the best picks!
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 07:29 AM
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I have been trying to read thru this thread to understand more about this product. Predator, I am having a difficult time understanding your posts. So much excitement is making it hard to seperate the facts.

As I understand it, this product sticks to cut epp and is faster/easier to apply than traditional goop and tape.

Is it more durable?

Stiiffer?

Does it look better after multiple crunches than goop and tape?

Cheaper?

Will Monokote or Solartex stick to it?

Weight for weight is it stiffer, stronger, more crash restistant that goop and tape?

The Balisti-cover heavy is the stuff to use for hinges?

Would it be possible for you to break out the properties of each type of your covering in a separate, easy to read post. It might help those of us slower than the rest of the herd?

Regards,

Brian
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 08:47 AM
Dean
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USA, CO, Littleton
Joined Apr 2005
3,847 Posts
The real beauty of this stuff is that it allows a super quick, relativly inexpensive build. Hours instead of days. You can build and crash a new plane every day....easily.

Dean...who flys in the "ROCKY" mountains
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 11:29 AM
The Predator
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Golden, Colorado
Joined Dec 2004
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It would be WAY easier for you to just tell me your goals for it and I could advise you on your specific needs only. Many of the questions you've asked are unknown as yet. Just get a bit in a cheap priority envelope if you want and run all the tests you'd like answers too.
I know there is LOTS of info and I'm a TERRIBLE WRITER. That's why I'd rather not do it all again with new screw-ups and more questions. I did leave something on my secratary's desk to work up but, I doubt it'll happen till I get an actual secratary and, this industry does not really support that lavish expenditure. I'm just an underpaid builder, designer, land lord, shipping person and new materials testor. I guess my skills end there. Really, the idea of this thread was to allow the guys to help with this new product and they have done a pretty good job I think. I'm sorry, I need to address things that put food on the table.
Karl
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 12:56 PM
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Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot_one
As I understand it, this product sticks to cut epp and is faster/easier to apply than traditional goop and tape.
It irons on like any iron on covering (although at a bit lower temp), but
generally needs no additional adhesive (like 3m Super 77, or Goop) to make
it stick extremely well. It actually sticks to bare cut foam better than anything else, and the adhesive sort of fills the gaps by itself.

Quote:
Is it more durable?
The thick stuff is more durable than Ultracote/Monocote by far.
It may be stronger than fibertape/Goop/Ultracote combo as well
but testing is ongoing. I can't speak to the lighter weights.

Quote:
Stiiffer?
There's a super rigid version ("dimensionally stable"), and a more
flexible version. The flexible heavy stuff is still quite stiff, but
can be ironed around tight curves. As I understand it, the rigid stuff
is *very* rigid, and is best for wide open flatter expanses with wide radius
curves.

Quote:
Does it look better after multiple crunches than goop and tape?
Karl's planes have held up to a lot of abuse with it.

Quote:
Cheaper?
Don't know, but I suspect so.

Quote:
Will Monokote or Solartex stick to it?
You'll have to read through the thread some more to
see how people have been talking about coloring it. In general it's
pretty slippery stuff though.

Quote:
Weight for weight is it stiffer, stronger, more crash restistant that goop and tape?
I think Karl will say so. He's got 19-20oz Bees done the conventional way
and one with the New Stuff that's also 19-20oz and it's holding up fine.

Quote:
The Balisti-cover heavy is the stuff to use for hinges?
It could probably make the top half of a hinge. (You wouldn't stick it to itself,
but use it on one side, and tape on the other at the hingeline).

ian
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 02:15 PM
The Predator
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Golden, Colorado
Joined Dec 2004
3,565 Posts
It is all under testing too. I've been slammed pretty hard representing stuff I HAVE test. Much of this I have not tested. I did test Plastic ply mid weigth as a live hinge and I thought it was too stiff on the Raider I was building. Servos straining and elevon twisting Not under any aerodynamic load. I would avoid that move for your own sake.
Stand alone on foam, I'm going to say all are less durible then a heavfty strapping tape job and normal covering, more stiff and rigid the tape and mono too. Used all together, as Ian has seen it on my Chinooks/used to be Balistics till I found another "Balistik" in existance, it is as tough as ANYTHING I've ever seen and WAY less work then double/triple strapping tape jobs then goop the covering.
This is new stuff has no track record, not being used as intended and therefore LOTS of qualities are unknown in our application. Ian is trying his best to help both of us out but, know that we are a small test popualtion and small test popualtions are not reliable.
I've been offering all but the Burrly for .50 a sq ft and it comes in 12" rolls. THAT'S CHEAP compared to any covering. If you need real clear instructions and warranties, DO NOT BUY THIS STUFF. I think it is much more suited for very experienced builders and generally for AGGRESSIVE pilots that kill ships fast and do not care if they are dam ugly. Now that's the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth. That all said, it is flying out the door, literally and figuratively! I have been endlessly pleased and rush my build just to get to the COVERING PART. It makes me happy to see my little monsters born in this skin.
All great things take time, love and perserverance. Take the time do the work, spent the $ and have the latest greatest or just wait till the masses do it and it'll be easy and just like the rest. Once I setle on my final Chinook proto type and send it to production I'll do SWEET instructions for it, as I did for the Bees, and I'll make sure that the WHOLE THING comes together perfectly using the new stuff. Till then, I can only support real orders and associated requests for real advice on real ships, IF I have any expience with said ship. Ian has only handled the Balisti-cover heavy, and I would imagine he can give you solid answers on that. As for the rest, its UNDER TESTING is the only sure thing. Well that and the ship I have covered in it seem to SCREAM nicely and sometimes break on SUPER EPIC DS crashes, often just radio gear but sometimes the airframe too, basially like any plane, just stiffer cheaper and easier.
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 04:24 PM
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Hey Predator,

I think it's great your looking out for the hobby and trying to get products out that are a good value and allow for a faster build.

I was not asking you to rewrite the whole thread, simply read the paraphrase and see if got it right, if not address the issues I screwed up.

I was trying to summerize what I thought I read, get straight answers and gain some knowledge before I bought some. Cut through the hype or crap, so to speak. Please, please forgive me for asking.

Like you said, it's all under testing. Could be in a car under the hot sun with a dark color under it it'll all fall off. Or it's the best thing ever discovered. Maybe something in the middle? Maybe some of the four producs are good and some are not so good. That's what I was trying to decifer.

Plastic Ply mid weight for the hinges? What there's five weights? I thought there are 2 types of covering with two weights.
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 04:40 PM
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I think part of the problem is the different weights available and talking about them as if they are the same product or me asking questions about the products in general.

Giving the weights a number 1 thru 4 might make it easier to keep track, or to type at least.
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Old Feb 01, 2008, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot_one
Hey Predator,



I was trying to summarize what I thought I read, get straight answers and gain some knowledge before I bought some. Cut through the hype or crap, so to speak.
Probably not going to happen in one of Karl's threads.

NEED MORE CAPS LOCK

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Old Feb 02, 2008, 10:26 AM
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How much is the 10 mil Burly/stiff per sq. ft?
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Old Feb 02, 2008, 10:59 AM
The Predator
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Golden, Colorado
Joined Dec 2004
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$.75/sq ft. for Burrly, toughest to apply.
Take the time, do the work, spent the $, accept the risk and MAYBE have the latest greatest or just wait till the masses do it and it'll be easy and just like the rest. I'll give my BEST advice on ANY order for covering on any ship. Just tell me the ship, span, the prevailing conditions and your flying style/experience. That's WAY better then any general descriptions. I often recomend como/hybrid covering jobs for top and bottom. No way am I going ANY WHERE NEAR covering all that, JITTER. Just e-mail me at Karl@Predatorwings.com. That way I can keep the pesky worthless posts out of my face. So how do I close this thread?
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Old Feb 02, 2008, 11:01 AM
The Predator
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See you on the other side!
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