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Old Dec 24, 2007, 12:51 PM
The Predator
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Golden, Colorado
Joined Dec 2004
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The NEW stuff!

Well guys-
I've been designing, building, testing and experimenting ALOT lately. I never would have worked so hard but, each time I tried something new it worked SO WELL my motivation levels skied out so, I've kept at it.
I have had the Canuck cut me 6 cheveron wing Prototypes in the last couple months (40" to 60") and, I have been VERY please with the results. This is my main area of expertise. These ships, "The Balistic Series" have prooved to be EXCELLENT slopers and DSers already. I was matching speeds with a Thorn yesterday using my 60" Balistic. We topped out around 120MPH in a moderate to moderate/strong groove (25-30 MPH winds) doing aggressive laps. Well I was doing agressive laps, the Thorn was having it's maiden DS flight to be fair but moving out WELL none the less. Plus a Thorn and tight circles are kind of an oxymoron.
I have also disovered a VERY consistant way to build ALL wings WITHOUT WING BEDS! This makes the builds super consistant and EASY. I've done a Raider, a bee, and a proto wing I got from Klique, Rite wing. They all fly GREAT with AMAZING low speed performance and just as fast as ever!
I found super sculpty clay a few months before it first appeared here on the groups as well and found some VERY cool fast easy uses for it. It makes GREAT boom holders for CF tube booms. This stuff is VERY hard once cured but a bit brittle till you get some goop on it. Pretty light too. I have also used it as verticle fin stabilizers using it like "book ends" where the fin is a single book pinched in between. Really stiffens it up tortionally that way! and acts as a fairing/fill-it. Did I mention it looks COOL!
NOW for the BIG NEWS-
I have found an AWESOME new covering material! I think, so far. . . It comes in MANY different weights, thicknesses and various properties too. It has a heat activated liquid adhesive that literally sinks into porous cut foam for a GREAT stick without ANY other adhesives AT ALL. As a matter of fact, I have already built 2 combat wings and one plank with it where I have not used any TAPE AT ALL since it seems PLENTY STRONG ALONE!!! That's right NO tape or thinned goop. . . ! Just spars and my covering. The first one I called the Naked Bee, it balanced PERFECT with no tape, a 5 cell AAA and the covering; it weighed 20 OZS and it really kicks butt so far! Its 3 weeks old and tested quite a bit.
I have also built the last 3 Balistics in this stuff (with tape) and BRUTALLY test them. So far duribility has surpassed ALL EXPECTATIONS and it is EASY to apply most all of this stuff except the VERY VERY thick heavy stuff (29gm/sq. ft.) that is COMPLETELY dimentionally stable (NO SHRINK AT ALL and tougher to bend). I call it Plastic plywood and the name is PERFECTLY fitting! I just finished the last Thunderbird I had (PW 51 60" Plank wing) with this stuff and NO TAPE AT ALL and ONLY goop for adhereing gear, tail, and wing to fuse. Mainly just foam, my new spar system and this INSAIN covering and some BIG chuncks of lead in the nose! The Tunderbird weighs 42 OZS off the bench and VERY close to balanced already! Talk about EASY, this ship took me 1 day to build WHILE pioneering the use of this covering AND my new spar system. It took me 1 1/2 days doing it the old way and WAY LESS FUN!
So Ya, I have been testing a new spar system as well under this covering and again so far it has UTTERLY amazed me. It is VERY easy to install this system and the Thunderbird resembles a piece of plywood in stiffness! (that's 3/4" ply mind you, LOL
This spar system is still in testing. It has not flown yet, only bridged tables with weights stacked in the middle of it! I want to test it more before saying much!
As for the covering, Iv'e POUNDED SOLID ROCK AND GUARD RAILS GOING WAY TOO FAST PLENTY of times with ships taped and covered in the stuff and it is TOTALY PROVEN in my eyes and, I'm one MEAN testor!
For now, I'd like to work with the many pilots that have supported me in the past and let them try out this new stuff on all kinds of various builds so we can all learn more. You guys know who you are and many locals here in CO are testing as well. I think Jantar wants it on his new JW's if that is any indication! It can produce light ships as well as heavy ones. YES, the lighter stuff is still significantly heavier then the old Koats, Mono or Ultra but, once you subtract the tape wieght you'll see it really ends up lighter and stronger! The raider I built took a lighter 4 X 2/3 AA, standard servos . . . and it weighed under 21 OZS (VERY LIGHT for a RAIDER) and I can play it like a bongo drum, no sh%t! WAY stiff and I managed to work a BUNCH of the washout OUT of this ship as well to keep it moving FAST at this VERY LIGHT weight. So far it has battled VERY WELL with this build on it!
The main issue I've had with the covering is that it is SO FAST to build with I've COMPLETELY run out of kits to build! Here's just a few of the MANY!
I built these conventionals as proof of concept and they fly GREAT. With these new light stiff coverings and spar systems I would imagine that conventional ship wings could be the BIGGEST BENFICIARIES. I'd be working more there but, this is not an area of expertise of mine. I'm ALL ears if anyone wants to put some time in with me on designing one these! I've got the build part DIALED!
So much easier to LOAD up a sled to with the MEGA heavy stiff stuff too! Much more fun then soaking your brain and cores in goop fumes!
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 01:40 PM
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Carlsbad, CA
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Where can I get this new covering material???
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 01:53 PM
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Wirral, (UK)
Joined Dec 2003
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Looks really interesting, so to summarise: You have a new spar system and a new covering. You have proven them and I gather you don't want to give too much away yet. Do you know if the covering is available outside the US?

When will you let us all know the details?

Waiting and watching with keen interest......Tony.
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 01:58 PM
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Looks like thinned, colored goop.
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 02:04 PM
Long to be flyin'
Antonsoarer's Avatar
Wirral, (UK)
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbo
Looks like thinned, colored goop.

Yes but it's a heat activated material! Sounds like it comes in sheets, surely someone can guess what this is, I can't but it might not be available in the UK.

Predator post-1 extract... "...I have found an AWESOME new covering material! I think, so far. . . It comes in MANY different weights, thickness's and various properties too. It has a heat activated liquid adhesive..."


Predator: Is this some kind of quiz/competition to see who can figure out what it is?
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 02:22 PM
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Lucas, KS
Joined Apr 2003
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It might be like some stuff I've been messing with for a while now. http://www.officedepot.com/textSearc...rue&Ntt=320264
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 02:24 PM
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ajroahkni's Avatar
USA, HI, Makawao
Joined Oct 2002
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Interested

Karl,

I'm interested in this new method - is it going to remain a trade secret?

Andrew cut the cores for my (RIP) PWNNd 2m and I'd love to build another someday...your technique seems to show promise for high aspect EPP.


John
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 03:02 PM
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motorhead's Avatar
Kansas, USA
Joined Sep 1999
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If it is laminating material (not saying it is) then I believe that this was used by Rob Hurd of South Dakota about 5 or more years ago. I have a roll of 10 mill in my shop that I played with after he told me about it. I first put it on a Foam-one. When my JW needs recovered I might have to try it out again.
Karl are we off base here?
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 03:08 PM
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Laminating material doesn't seem like the right answer. I've used it before on balsa airplanes, and while it's adhesive is heat activated, there isn't enough to 'sink in' like he describes. It wasn't any better than any other covering.
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 03:21 PM
All work and no play
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Lucas, KS
Joined Apr 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbo
Laminating material doesn't seem like the right answer. I've used it before on balsa airplanes, and while it's adhesive is heat activated, there isn't enough to 'sink in' like he describes. It wasn't any better than any other covering.
It might be how you did it. When I do it or any other covering it rips the foam out if you try to take it off. Stuff is cheep, I heard about Rod doing it a while ago.
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 05:06 PM
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Salida, Colorado
Joined Sep 2002
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If it's mylar laminating film, it's been used by many...in fact I used to supply it in my Spinner kits in 3 or 5 mil thicknesses. But it wasn't dimensionally stable as Karl claims, ust lower shrink than the common covering films, so he must be plugged into a NASA supply store somewhere!

I've hunted a lot for that magic plastic covering and haven't found it yet. But there are so many plastics to choose from (like thousands). It's just a matter of hijacking Karl some dark night, chaining him down, and applying the feather to the bottoms of his feet...

Ed
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 06:07 PM
trying to kick the habit
United States, CA
Joined Mar 2006
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When do you plan on sharing this TOP SECRET info?

Doesnt look like the document laminating film like the one in the link. If it is, I have a few hundred feet of 1.5 and 3 mil I would be willing to sell. Wouldnt be surprised if it was the self adhesive stuff though (which has also been used before). Like this:

http://www.officedepot.com/a/product...=true&An=text/
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 06:08 PM
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Dakslope's Avatar
Sioux Falls SD
Joined Aug 2004
61 Posts
Hey Mike, you have a great memory! Do you think Predator has found some "new generation" stuff?

The EPP planes I covered with the laminate (JW, Gulp) flew like moldies, at least till the first few wrinkles happened.

The film I got from Kinko's had miminum shrinkage, so compound curves at the wingtips were a challenge to cover. If I remember right, that's the only reason I quit using it.

Rob
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 06:26 PM
The Predator
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Golden, Colorado
Joined Dec 2004
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Oh man-
I'll just give you some Ed, I'd love your feedback. I'll do this for anyone who I have work with before and even show you which weight to use and for what application. I want to use it to help sell a few of my new designs and then it'll all go FREE FOR ALL if not sooner. I think I can really save ALOT of heart ache if I show some instructions about application how to's and balancing. . . it's cool stuff. I Maidened, tuned, and DSed my Pink Thunderbird in the stuff today and got 120MPH with it and the Thunderbird was/felt very light at 44 ozs *add 2 ozs balancing weight. Very rough powerful conditions too. I think it could be LOTS heavier AUW for that and the spar seemed a little bord as yet. I KNOW it wants a BIG WORKOUT! Time to SMELT some lead!

And as ALWAYS my Balistic 60" tickled me PINK, well that one is yellow and my all time favorite ship for DS and maybe frontside? have not flown much there lately. That thing is super fast stable and efficient.
Definitely try your stuff Mike! Might not be like mine but, that's HOW I found mine. Maybe your is better! Try it! From all my work lately THE MAIN THING I LEARNED is ALWAYS TRY IT. Just some gay little experiment, and NEVER let someone tell you it will not work unless testing is expensive. Then consider all arguments. Even when you fail you'll usually learn something right there.
I'm sure a talus would like a shiney coat! huh Ed? I'll set all you guys up that have posted so far and lots more up with this stuff for now if you all want 100ft roll of what ever kind you want and or some samples. . . The worst of it is buying 200ft at a time but that seems to help the price! Just PM or call me if we've worked together before and have the #. I think you guys are going to HAVE A BALL. I have so many new ships from this stuff cheap and easy too! Makes flying with RECKLESS ABONDON feel so RIGHT!!! OH YES!!! Like we did today!
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Old Dec 24, 2007, 08:04 PM
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Interesting. So since it's about time for me to start solicitations for the upcoming WCSC, which one of the new designs all made up and RTF are you donating Karl?
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