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Old Jun 03, 2008, 02:04 PM
I can drift a heli
maarset's Avatar
USA, CA, Sacramento
Joined Mar 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAviationjay
Dude a HBFP cannot even come close to spinning M24s as fast as they need to be spun for them to be worth while.

I dont think your pinion gearing are set up as well as they should be for high headspeed.
Mine is so smooth it is like a sewing machine at FFF speed. In fact I watch the boom and the head and they are not vibrating at all.

Im running the ARC130I with a 10 tooth RS4 pinion.
and the M24s are so fast and so stable they make it feel like its flying in slow motion when I put Compy woodies on it.
I hover at around 48% and FFF at less than 75% and still have 25% for emergency punches.

you shouldnt be anywhere close to using full throttle on this little beast with the amount of power you are pushing to the blades.

I did notice that my headspeed on my compy is ALOT faster and alot more powerful overall than my Freestyle which boggles me as I thought they were exactly the same setup.


I did have to change out the craptastic SOFT rear blades as they were causing a NASTY vibration at higher headspeeds.. when looked at from behind you could see the soft rear blades were NOT tracking in the same arc at all.
this casued serious vibration at near full throttle.
I used King2 rear blades and that issue went away.
The stock tail blades are much to mushy and soft.

I still want to replace them with Trex tail blades but for now the king2s are a perfect fit no grinding or clearance issues but just a tad longer and MUCH firmer.

I believe a Compy is alot heavier than the free style kit. With a 10T and a HDX300 3400 kv and the M-24's I'm hovering around 60% throttle with the Compy. I'm around 416 grams. I really have to punch that throttle to get some air. For this setup to work for me I would probably have to go up to a 11T pinion. But I think my flight times are going to go out the door big time. But then I could go with a even bigger battery which would make my Headspeed go up even more. And can that small 3mm shaft and plastic head really handle that? Maybe it can but how long would it last? I will check out my tail blades and see how they are tracking. They didn't seem too soft to me.
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 02:09 PM
US Navy AT2 1987-1995
USNAviationjay's Avatar
Houston Texas
Joined Mar 2008
1,329 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarset
I believe a Compy is alot heavier than the free style kit. With a 10T and a HDX300 3400 kv and the M-24's I'm hovering around 60% throttle with the Compy. I'm around 416 grams. I really have to punch that throttle to get some air. For this setup to work for me I would probably have to go up to a 11T pinion. But I think my flight times are going to go out the door big time. But then I could go with a even bigger battery which would make my Headspeed go up even more. And can that small 3mm shaft and plastic head really handle that? Maybe it can but how long would it last? I will check out my tail blades and see how they are tracking. They didn't seem too soft to me.
this is all on my real Compy Maars.

Its completed and flys with the M24s even better than the FREEP =D
With the ARC130I and a 10t I hover at 49 and have so much punch its insane..
full power would send this thing to the next area code in about 2 secs.

yes the stock drivetrain can handle the high headspeed.
JPC did this before any of us and he had no issues except for the now tried and true Align Flybar swap.
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 02:19 PM
US Navy AT2 1987-1995
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Houston Texas
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude_109
With all due respect Jay, since you don't own a real HBFP (yours is Freestyle), I fly SloMax + M24s on mine, as well as others on the HBFP thread, and hover at 2/3 throttle and still have decent punch out with a 10T pinion. 9T has hover at 80% so not enough reserve power.




Weigh the 2 helis, I'm guessing the Compy is a bit heavier so will need higher headspeed. A hefty HBFP will weigh in a tad over 300g while a Compy is usually 1/3 heavier. I don't know about the weight of the Freestyle conversion since I don't own one.

Yah the Compy is noticeably heavier its quite the stocky little bird.
the freestyle is a flyweight contender the heaviest part is the tail.

even with the battery on and the canopy on it is very light in comparison.

It gets kited alot easier than the Compy
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 02:27 PM
I can drift a heli
maarset's Avatar
USA, CA, Sacramento
Joined Mar 2005
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and because of that we cannot compare them. What does your feep and compy weight?
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 04:17 PM
US Navy AT2 1987-1995
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Houston Texas
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maarset
and because of that we cannot compare them. What does your feep and compy weight?

again maars read very carefully...

I'm not TALKING ABOUT THE FREEP..
I'm talking about the Compy 300 FP BD..
seriously man I spelled it out for you 3 times.

I havent even really flown the FREEP since I finished the compy.

The Compy 300 is what the last 3 posts I made directly to you were about.
I HAVE BOTH...
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 04:41 PM
I can drift a heli
maarset's Avatar
USA, CA, Sacramento
Joined Mar 2005
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sorry you were just boggled as to why the headspeed was different between your freep and compy with the same setup a couple of posts back. The heavier the heli the faster the headspeed for a fp.
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 05:11 PM
Real wings, RC rotors
asw20rr's Avatar
Colorado
Joined Oct 2007
646 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAviationjay

you shouldnt be anywhere close to using full throttle on this little beast with the amount of power you are pushing to the blades.
Full throttle does not relate to power, unless your motor is undersized. Full throttle headspeed will be Dependant on your pack voltage, motor KV rating, efficiency, and gear ratio. For example using the Esky 3100 with a 9T and M24's gives you a full throttle headspeed that is too slow for good vertical performance. I know because I have twice hit the ground due to insufficient lift to pull out of a high speed descent. It is not because the motor cannot produce enough power, it is because the motor will spin no faster on the available voltage. Lots of people on this forum are running much higher KV motors, so will not see this limitation.

Maarset, I'd see what happens with solid links on both sides of the head. I have found the Compy to be pretty susceptible to weird induced oscillations, even when everything seems pretty well balanced. I know I run my gyro at lower gain than I'd like otherwise I get that low frequency up and down bobble in the tail, but I got that with the woodies as well.

- Doug
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 05:38 PM
US Navy AT2 1987-1995
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Houston Texas
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asw20rr
Full throttle does not relate to power, unless your motor is undersized. Full throttle headspeed will be Dependant on your pack voltage, motor KV rating, efficiency, and gear ratio. For example using the Esky 3100 with a 9T and M24's gives you a full throttle headspeed that is too slow for good vertical performance. I know because I have twice hit the ground due to insufficient lift to pull out of a high speed descent. It is not because the motor cannot produce enough power, it is because the motor will spin no faster on the available voltage. Lots of people on this forum are running much higher KV motors, so will not see this limitation.

Maarset, I'd see what happens with solid links on both sides of the head. I have found the Compy to be pretty susceptible to weird induced oscillations, even when everything seems pretty well balanced. I know I run my gyro at lower gain than I'd like otherwise I get that low frequency up and down bobble in the tail, but I got that with the woodies as well.

- Doug
Im not sure I follow that Doug? I was just saying that with the much smaller ARC130 my FT is insane but he has a much bigger outrunner thats having issues with the M24 blades for some reason.

or is the ARC130 actually a bigger motor (higher output) than the outrunners these guys are useing or just a different design?

I thought their motors were higher output then the little ARCs
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 05:57 PM
Real wings, RC rotors
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Colorado
Joined Oct 2007
646 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAviationjay
Im not sure I follow that Doug? I was just saying that with the much smaller ARC130 my FT is insane but he has a much bigger outrunner thats having issues with the M24 blades for some reason.

or is the ARC130 actually a bigger motor (higher output) than the outrunners these guys are useing or just a different design?

I thought their motors were higher output then the little ARCs
Hi Jay,

This is exactly what I was trying/hoping to clarify. There is a difference between the power a motor will produce and its max speed. For example, on a 3 cell pack producing 11.5 volts under load a 3100 KV motor (say 90% efficient) will turn at 3100x11.5x.9 = 32085 RPM. It will turn at more or less that same speed regardless of the load, so long as the load is less than the max current load. The KV rating is what is limiting the motor speed, not the power available or size of the motor. You can put a larger 3100 KV motor in that can produce more power, but it will not deliver higher WOT headspeed, it will just be heavier and therefore give you poorer performance. Unless you are pushing max current at WOT, you don't need a bigger motor. This situation is easier to see in a CP heli because you can hear the motor bog down when you feed in full collective if it is unable to deliver the required power. In most FP cases, you have enough power and you need a bigger pinion to reduce the gear ratio and get more headspeed. On the other hand, you don't want too big a pinion or then you are flying around at a low throttle % all the time which is inefficient. Brushless motors like to run up near their peak RPM. With a fixed pitch, you have to balance efficiency and available RPM increase for vertical performance.

I don't think Maarset's problem really relates to his motor or gearing at all, though, since he didn't complain about a lack of performance, but rather instability near WOT. I think at his near WOT headspeed there is some kind of an oscillation near resonance. It is probably a complicated oscillation involving some vibration in the airframe inducing poor behavior in the gyro in a closed loop. Not easy to diagnose....

- Doug
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 06:00 PM
It's a heli valotta fun!
kt74's Avatar
Joined Apr 2007
1,413 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAviationjay
Im not sure I follow that Doug? I was just saying that with the much smaller ARC130 my FT is insane but he has a much bigger outrunner thats having issues with the M24 blades for some reason.

or is the ARC130 actually a bigger motor (higher output) than the outrunners these guys are useing or just a different design?

I thought their motors were higher output then the little ARCs
The Arc 130 is a 4400kv 130W output motor. So the Arc 130 is going to sling the blades faster than a 3400kv motor which is what Maarset is using. Outrunners produce a higher torque than inrunners (which the Arc 130 is), but inrunners are more suited to producing higher speed.
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 06:05 PM
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United States, TX, Austin
Joined Dec 2006
13,752 Posts
The FP head and what I've discovered

For the longest time, I've 'fought' the blade tracking-vibration-wobble problem and finally figured out a 'good' solution. Some have discovered that advancing the blade before lift off stopped the problems, so I decided that the blades MUST be VERY tight/snug on the head to avoid the lead/lag that occurs with collective/throttle changes (add power...they lag behind the head--in other words, the head spins faster than the blades)....which causes the wobble/vibration/tracking problem.
What I found was....you must use M2.5 bolts with fiber nuts (they come with a set of blades..usually). You must use a good head stiffener !
Start with a brand new FP head. Use a drill bit one size under the M2.5 bolt. Drill out the holes for bolts. Start the bolts and tighten in the head (do NOT overtighten). Assemble head with blades (if using the woodies, you'll need to drill the metal pitch washer for 2.5 bolts)...fiber nut on bottom. While holding head of the M2.5 bolt, tighten the fiber nut and check the blade for movement. It should just start to move with 'some' pressure. the trick is to have them as tight as possible, but still be able to move in the event they're attracted to 'other' things
Ohhh....it's still a good idea to advance both blades before flight. I still sometimes have minor wobbles (skid shake), but it's because the fiber nuts need to be re-snugged.
Please post your results if I've helped

-Dave
P.S....good STIFF tail blades are a most as well. I use the trex 'batwing' style
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Last edited by Lonelasso; Jun 03, 2008 at 06:39 PM.
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 06:43 PM
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USA, Eastern Ohio
Joined Jan 2005
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Do I see blood spots on that blade?
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 06:59 PM
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USA, Eastern Ohio
Joined Jan 2005
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Here's my recently completed Compy.

3100 Kv Esky motor
Dynam 25 A ESC
Telebee gyro
hs-55 servos
Berg 4L Rx
Multiplex Cockpit MM Tx

The only mod I've made is right now I'm using the main blades from my old (and destroyed ) HBFP.
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 07:15 PM
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United States, TX, Austin
Joined Dec 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag1260
Do I see blood spots on that blade?
Naw.....just a stopped up spray nozzle !
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Old Jun 03, 2008, 08:00 PM
I can drift a heli
maarset's Avatar
USA, CA, Sacramento
Joined Mar 2005
2,366 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAviationjay
again maars read very carefully...

I'm not TALKING ABOUT THE FREEP..
I'm talking about the Compy 300 FP BD..
seriously man I spelled it out for you 3 times.

I havent even really flown the FREEP since I finished the compy.

The Compy 300 is what the last 3 posts I made directly to you were about.
I HAVE BOTH...
And not to bring up any more griping but you then compare my setup to something JPC has been running for a while. Which I don't understand. Correct me if I am wrong but his Compy was a CP and his FP was a Free Style. I do read carefully.
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