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Old Dec 16, 2007, 06:30 PM
Glenn Møller-Holst
Guest
n/a Posts
Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh 80)as an engine fuel?

Hi!

Have any tried to use a bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or
vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an (model) engine fuel? It might also be named
bioethanol? The engine should be made of corrosion resistant like
materials (e.g. ceramics):

May 21, 2007, Moller international's rotapower engine achieves
performance breakthrough using ethanol-water mix:
http://www.moller.com/files/Ethanol-..._5-18-07v2.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioethanol

regards,

Glenn
Old Dec 16, 2007, 08:18 PM
David Hopper
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an engine fuel?

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 00:30:00 +0100, Glenn Møller-Holst <nomail@xx.dk>
wrote:

>Hi!
>
>Have any tried to use a bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or
>vodka...


I tried but it made my plane stand up on one leg then tip over....

Old Dec 18, 2007, 06:00 PM
Doug McLaren
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh 80)as an engine fuel?

In article <fk4cde$v40$1@news.net.uni-c.dk>,
Glenn Møller-Holst <nomail@xx.dk> wrote:

| Have any tried to use a bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or
| vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an (model) engine fuel?

Sounds expensive. And a waste! Unless the taxes are different over
there -- here, if it's drinkable alcohol, it's heavily taxed and
therefore much more expensive and regulated than something that's not
drinkable.

| It might also be named 5D bioethanol?

Odd name. Why not just `ethanol' ? I guess bioethanol sounds more
`green'.

| The engine should be made of corrosion resistant like materials
| (e.g. ceramics):

Why? Our normal engines run on a mixture of methanol, oil and maybe
some nitromethane. I don't doubt that ethanol and oil would work just
as well, and a little water doesn't hurt things (but it's best to get
it out when you store the engine, or it'll cause corrosion. After-run
oil works pretty well.)

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us
Captain Zapp Brannigan : Kif, I'm feeling the Captain's Itch.
Kif Kroker : I'll get the powder, sir.
Old Dec 18, 2007, 06:38 PM
Ed Cregger
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an engine fuel?

And the odd part is that all alcohol is "green", in the strictest sense.
Methanol can be cooked from wood chips, leaves, grass, etc.


Ed Cregger


"Doug McLaren" <dougmc+usenet-20071218@frenzied.us> wrote in message
news:1198018467.24621@frenzied.us...
> In article <fk4cde$v40$1@news.net.uni-c.dk>,
> Glenn Møller-Holst <nomail@xx.dk> wrote:
>
> | Have any tried to use a bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or
> | vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an (model) engine fuel?
>
> Sounds expensive. And a waste! Unless the taxes are different over
> there -- here, if it's drinkable alcohol, it's heavily taxed and
> therefore much more expensive and regulated than something that's not
> drinkable.
>
> | It might also be named 5D bioethanol?
>
> Odd name. Why not just `ethanol' ? I guess bioethanol sounds more
> `green'.
>
> | The engine should be made of corrosion resistant like materials
> | (e.g. ceramics):
>
> Why? Our normal engines run on a mixture of methanol, oil and maybe
> some nitromethane. I don't doubt that ethanol and oil would work just
> as well, and a little water doesn't hurt things (but it's best to get
> it out when you store the engine, or it'll cause corrosion. After-run
> oil works pretty well.)
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us
> Captain Zapp Brannigan : Kif, I'm feeling the Captain's Itch.
> Kif Kroker : I'll get the powder, sir.



Old Dec 19, 2007, 04:02 PM
Glenn Møller-Holst
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh80) as an engine fuel?

Doug McLaren wrote:
> In article <fk4cde$v40$1@news.net.uni-c.dk>,
> Glenn Møller-Holst <nomail@xx.dk> wrote:
>
> | Have any tried to use a bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or
> | vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an (model) engine fuel?
>
> Sounds expensive. And a waste! Unless the taxes are different over
> there -- here, if it's drinkable alcohol, it's heavily taxed and
> therefore much more expensive and regulated than something that's not
> drinkable.


Hi Doug

I was trying to be a little ironic. Ok I should have written that. Sorry.

>
> | It might also be named 5D bioethanol?


I did not write "5D".

>
> Odd name. Why not just `ethanol' ? I guess bioethanol sounds more
> `green'.
>
> | The engine should be made of corrosion resistant like materials
> | (e.g. ceramics):
>
> Why? Our normal engines run on a mixture of methanol, oil and maybe
> some nitromethane. I don't doubt that ethanol and oil would work just
> as well, and a little water doesn't hurt things (but it's best to get
> it out when you store the engine, or it'll cause corrosion. After-run
> oil works pretty well.)
>


Please read this document:

May 21, 2007, Moller international's rotapower engine achieves
performance breakthrough using ethanol-water mix:
http://www.moller.com/files/Ethanol-..._5-18-07v2.pdf

you can read, that the water cools the engine, reduces the emissions and
reduced fire hazard.

-

Here you can read about: Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_U...ission_Vehicle

/Glenn
Old Dec 19, 2007, 05:13 PM
Robert Reynolds
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh80) as an engine fuel?



Glenn Møller-Holst wrote:
>
> you can read, that the water cools the engine, reduces the emissions and
> reduced fire hazard.
>
> -


I had an argument a few years ago with somebody on a car group about
engine efficiency. I made the statement that half of your fuel is used
for engine cooling through evaporation and expansion. The other person
involved in that argument thought that was a ridiculous statement for
some reason. Any Cessna pilot knows that fuel mixture controls head
temperature.

Any piston engine can be made twice as efficient by making it out of
high temp materials such as ceramics. Or you could inject water into
the cylinder right after combustion, the water will expand and cool, and
you can use normal materials. There was a guy in Australia a few years
ago experimenting with water vapor injected into the manifold, with some
success.

It seems to me that a water-alcohol mix would be an excellent idea,
because you would get the cooling effect you want, plus the extra power
when the water expands and pushes the piston, plus you could cut your
use of the base fuel considerably. I just wonder if you would have to
ignite it with a spark plug rather than a glow plug.
Old Dec 19, 2007, 05:14 PM
icerinkdad@gmail.com
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh 80)as an engine fuel?


>
> May 21, 2007, Moller international's rotapower engine achieves
> performance breakthrough using ethanol-water mix:http://www.moller.com/files/Ethanol-...ease_5-18-07v2...
>
> you can read, that the water cools the engine, reduces the emissions and
> reduced fire hazard.
>
> -
>
> Here you can read about: Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_U...ission_Vehicle
>
> /Glenn


I take everything from Moller with a block of salt. Their history is
not good. We have run model airplane engines on ethenol and oil
mixes as well as methenol/ethenol blends. This all to try and get
around limits to fuel capacity in some racing events.. In an engine
optimized for Methenol it works... but the fuel has fewer BTU's than
either methenol or gasoline producing less power. Also alcohol/water
injection is old news... WWII aircraft regularly used this to produce
higher power at "wartime" throttle settings. It did not work in
recipricating engines because of wear and tear on the engines... might
work in a rotary/wakel type of engine like Moller uses. Also since
model engines use oil mixed into the fuel too much water causes the
oil to come out of suspension....
Bob Furr
Old Dec 19, 2007, 05:19 PM
Robert Reynolds
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh80) as an engine fuel?



icerinkdad@gmail.com wrote:
> Also alcohol/water
> injection is old news... WWII aircraft regularly used this to produce
> higher power at "wartime" throttle settings. It did not work in
> recipricating engines because of wear and tear on the engines...



Alcohol injection systems were used on radial piston engines at the
height of piston engine development, just before jets came on the scene.


might
> work in a rotary/wakel type of engine like Moller uses. Also since
> model engines use oil mixed into the fuel too much water causes the
> oil to come out of suspension....


Couldn't you add a detergent?
Old Dec 19, 2007, 11:39 PM
bm459@scn.org
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh 80)as an engine fuel?

On 18 Dec, 18:00, "Doug McLaren" <dougmc+usenet-20071...@frenzied.us>
wrote:
> In article <fk4cde$v4...@news.net.uni-c.dk>,
> Glenn M=F8ller-Holst <nom...@xx.dk> wrote:
>
> | Have any tried to use a bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or
> | vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an (model) engine fuel?
>
> Sounds expensive. And a waste! Unless the taxes are different over
> there -- here, if it's drinkable alcohol, it's heavily taxed and
> therefore much more expensive and regulated than something that's not
> drinkable.
>
> | It might also be named 5D bioethanol?
>
> Odd name. Why not just `ethanol' ? I guess bioethanol sounds more
> `green'.
>
> | The engine should be made of corrosion resistant like materials
> | (e.g. ceramics):
>
> Why? Our normal engines run on a mixture of methanol, oil and maybe
> some nitromethane. I don't doubt that ethanol and oil would work just
> as well, and a little water doesn't hurt things (but it's best to get
> it out when you store the engine, or it'll cause corrosion. After-run
> oil works pretty well.)
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us
> Captain Zapp Brannigan : Kif, I'm feeling the Captain's Itch.
> Kif Kroker : I'll get the powder, sir.


Bioethanol is expensive even without the taxes. The inexpensive way
to make ethanol is to make it directly from a hydrocarbon source such
as - horror of horrors -crude oil. Run the crude through a cracker
and then hydrate the ethylene. To my knowledge all the commercial
ethanol used by industry is made from crude oil at considerably lower
cost per gallon then bioethanol will ever be. When we run out of
crude the cheap way will be from coal. An added advantage is such
"chemically" manufactured alcohol is not loaded with all the fusal
oils and crap that fermentation processes produce. Net result is much
less hangover if you accidently drink it. You just need to be sure to
QC the stuff to make sure it is not denatured. Generally you do find
a tiny amount of methanol in it. But less methanol then you typically
find in bioproduced drinking beverages like wine or any hard booze.

Ethanol works fine in a glo engine. You might need to twiddle the
compression ratio a little. The carb setting will also be more
critical. You will not get quite the power from a given displacement
as you can not stuff as many BTUs worth of ethanol per cycle through
the engine as you can methanol. For most purposes the power loss
would not make any difference really. Models are typically over
powered enough that a 15% power loss would not be a big deal unless
you are hovering.
Old Dec 20, 2007, 12:21 AM
Glenn Møller-Holst
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix... [ Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine ]

Robert Reynolds wrote:
>
>
> Glenn Møller-Holst wrote:
>>
>> you can read, that the water cools the engine, reduces the emissions
>> and reduced fire hazard.
>>
>> -

>
> I had an argument a few years ago with somebody on a car group about
> engine efficiency. I made the statement that half of your fuel is used
> for engine cooling through evaporation and expansion. The other person
> involved in that argument thought that was a ridiculous statement for
> some reason. Any Cessna pilot knows that fuel mixture controls head
> temperature.
>
> Any piston engine can be made twice as efficient by making it out of
> high temp materials such as ceramics. Or you could inject water into
> the cylinder right after combustion, the water will expand and cool, and
> you can use normal materials. There was a guy in Australia a few years
> ago experimenting with water vapor injected into the manifold, with some
> success.
>
> It seems to me that a water-alcohol mix would be an excellent idea,
> because you would get the cooling effect you want, plus the extra power
> when the water expands and pushes the piston, plus you could cut your
> use of the base fuel considerably. I just wonder if you would have to
> ignite it with a spark plug rather than a glow plug.


Hi Robert

I assume you mean this guy and this engine:

02/23/06 Inside Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73237057986546
Quote: "..."I've been trying to think how to capture radiator losses for
over 30 years," explains the veteran camshaft grinder and race engine
builder..."It'll run for an hour and you can literally put your hand on
it. It's warm, yeah, but it's not scorching hot...Indeed, the test unit
has no external cooling system-no water jacket, no water pump, no
radiator; nothing...Bottom-line, Bruce estimates his new operating cycle
could improve a typical engine's fuel consumption by 40 percent. He also
anticipates that exhaust emissions may be greatly reduced. It's all
thanks to the steam..."

More about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_stroke_engine

/Glenn
Old Dec 20, 2007, 12:26 AM
Glenn Møller-Holst
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix... [ Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine ]

Glenn Møller-Holst wrote:
> Robert Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>
>> Glenn Møller-Holst wrote:
>>>
>>> you can read, that the water cools the engine, reduces the emissions
>>> and reduced fire hazard.
>>>
>>> -

>>
>> I had an argument a few years ago with somebody on a car group about
>> engine efficiency. I made the statement that half of your fuel is
>> used for engine cooling through evaporation and expansion. The other
>> person involved in that argument thought that was a ridiculous
>> statement for some reason. Any Cessna pilot knows that fuel mixture
>> controls head temperature.
>>
>> Any piston engine can be made twice as efficient by making it out of
>> high temp materials such as ceramics. Or you could inject water into
>> the cylinder right after combustion, the water will expand and cool,
>> and you can use normal materials. There was a guy in Australia a few
>> years ago experimenting with water vapor injected into the manifold,
>> with some success.
>>
>> It seems to me that a water-alcohol mix would be an excellent idea,
>> because you would get the cooling effect you want, plus the extra
>> power when the water expands and pushes the piston, plus you could cut
>> your use of the base fuel considerably. I just wonder if you would
>> have to ignite it with a spark plug rather than a glow plug.

>
> Hi Robert
>
> I assume you mean this guy and this engine:
>
> 02/23/06 Inside Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine:
> http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73237057986546
>
> Quote: "..."I've been trying to think how to capture radiator losses for
> over 30 years," explains the veteran camshaft grinder and race engine
> builder..."It'll run for an hour and you can literally put your hand on
> it. It's warm, yeah, but it's not scorching hot...Indeed, the test unit
> has no external cooling system-no water jacket, no water pump, no
> radiator; nothing...Bottom-line, Bruce estimates his new operating cycle
> could improve a typical engine's fuel consumption by 40 percent. He also
> anticipates that exhaust emissions may be greatly reduced. It's all
> thanks to the steam..."
>
> More about:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_stroke_engine
>
> /Glenn


More about - Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke

Possible characterization: Steam machine powered and hybrid with an in
situ ethanol powered engine?

/Glenn
Old Dec 20, 2007, 06:33 AM
IFLYJ3
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh 80)as an engine fuel?

On Dec 18, 6:00=EF=BF=BDpm, "Doug McLaren" <dougmc
+usenet-20071...@frenzied.us> wrote:
> In article <fk4cde$v4...@news.net.uni-c.dk>,
> Glenn M=EF=BF=BDller-Holst =EF=BF=BD<nom...@xx.dk> wrote:
>
> | Have any tried to use a bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or
> | vodka e.g. Stroh 80) as an (model) engine fuel?
>
> Sounds expensive. =EF=BF=BDAnd a waste! =EF=BF=BDUnless the taxes are diff=

erent over
> there -- here, if it's drinkable alcohol, it's heavily taxed and
> therefore much more expensive and regulated than something that's not
> drinkable.
>
> | It might also be named 5D bioethanol?
>
> Odd name. =EF=BF=BDWhy not just `ethanol' ? =EF=BF=BDI guess bioethanol so=

unds more
> `green'.
>
> | The engine should be made of corrosion resistant like materials
> | (e.g. ceramics):
>
> Why? =EF=BF=BDOur normal engines run on a mixture of methanol, oil and may=

be
> some nitromethane. =EF=BF=BDI don't doubt that ethanol and oil would work =

just
> as well, and a little water doesn't hurt things (but it's best to get
> it out when you store the engine, or it'll cause corrosion. =EF=BF=BDAfter=

-run
> oil works pretty well.)
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us
> Captain Zapp Brannigan : Kif, I'm feeling the Captain's Itch.
> Kif Kroker : I'll get the powder, sir.


If I remember reading correctly ethanol will not provide the necessary
catalytic action to keep the glow plug lit, like methanol does. This
would mean either spark ignition or continous glow plug heating with a
battery to keep the engine running.
Old Dec 20, 2007, 06:43 AM
The Natural Philosopher
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh80) as an engine fuel?

Robert Reynolds wrote:
>
>
> Glenn M�ller-Holst wrote:
>>
>> you can read, that the water cools the engine, reduces the emissions
>> and reduced fire hazard.
>>
>> -

>
> I had an argument a few years ago with somebody on a car group about
> engine efficiency. I made the statement that half of your fuel is used
> for engine cooling through evaporation and expansion.


More like 75%. Very few IC engines achieve more than 25% thermal
efficiency. I believe a best practice blown diesel at optimal throttle
may do around 35%.


> The other person
> involved in that argument thought that was a ridiculous statement for
> some reason. Any Cessna pilot knows that fuel mixture controls head
> temperature.
>


That however is for different reasons..weak mixtures burn faster and hotter.

> Any piston engine can be made twice as efficient by making it out of
> high temp materials such as ceramics.


No. The key is ultra high compression ratios by and large. And ultra
lean mixtures. I.e. Diesel.


Or you could inject water into
> the cylinder right after combustion, the water will expand and cool, and
> you can use normal materials. There was a guy in Australia a few years
> ago experimenting with water vapor injected into the manifold, with some
> success.


Water injection allows slightly higher comp ratios without knocking, and
the water becomes steam, and adds to the mass in the expansion volume.


>
> It seems to me that a water-alcohol mix would be an excellent idea,
> because you would get the cooling effect you want, plus the extra power
> when the water expands and pushes the piston, plus you could cut your
> use of the base fuel considerably. I just wonder if you would have to
> ignite it with a spark plug rather than a glow plug.


You CAM do it but you ned up beyond a certain vlumke with ignition problems.


Old Dec 20, 2007, 06:49 AM
The Natural Philosopher
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix... [ Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine ]

� wrote:
> Glenn M�ller-Holst wrote:
>> Robert Reynolds wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Glenn M�ller-Holst wrote:
>>>>
>>>> you can read, that the water cools the engine, reduces the emissions
>>>> and reduced fire hazard.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>
>>> I had an argument a few years ago with somebody on a car group about
>>> engine efficiency. I made the statement that half of your fuel is
>>> used for engine cooling through evaporation and expansion. The other
>>> person involved in that argument thought that was a ridiculous
>>> statement for some reason. Any Cessna pilot knows that fuel mixture
>>> controls head temperature.
>>>
>>> Any piston engine can be made twice as efficient by making it out of
>>> high temp materials such as ceramics. Or you could inject water into
>>> the cylinder right after combustion, the water will expand and cool,
>>> and you can use normal materials. There was a guy in Australia a few
>>> years ago experimenting with water vapor injected into the manifold,
>>> with some success.
>>>
>>> It seems to me that a water-alcohol mix would be an excellent idea,
>>> because you would get the cooling effect you want, plus the extra
>>> power when the water expands and pushes the piston, plus you could
>>> cut your use of the base fuel considerably. I just wonder if you
>>> would have to ignite it with a spark plug rather than a glow plug.

>>
>> Hi Robert
>>
>> I assume you mean this guy and this engine:
>>
>> 02/23/06 Inside Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine:
>> http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73237057986546
>>
>> Quote: "..."I've been trying to think how to capture radiator losses
>> for over 30 years," explains the veteran camshaft grinder and race
>> engine builder..."It'll run for an hour and you can literally put your
>> hand on it. It's warm, yeah, but it's not scorching hot...Indeed, the
>> test unit has no external cooling system-no water jacket, no water
>> pump, no radiator; nothing...Bottom-line, Bruce estimates his new
>> operating cycle could improve a typical engine's fuel consumption by
>> 40 percent. He also anticipates that exhaust emissions may be greatly
>> reduced. It's all thanks to the steam..."
>>
>> More about:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_stroke_engine
>>
>> /Glenn

>
> More about - Bruce Crower's Six-Stroke Engine:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke
>
> Possible characterization: Steam machine powered and hybrid with an in
> situ ethanol powered engine?
>


Ther most effivient heat engiones made are in power sttaions. One of the
best aoppraoches has been to use a gas turbine, with the exhaust heating
a boiler, and a steam condensing turbine on the back of it.

Heat engine efficiency is directly related to initial combustion
temperature and final exhaust temperature. The higer the differential,
the more power is extracted.

The problem with IC engines is that the kit to do this is heavy bulky
and expensive, so not much use for an aero engine.

Water injection adds a few percent. sure, but its not a dramatic step.

My old MG midget was noticably faster on cold foggy days..maybe a single
mph or two. But noticeable.

> /Glenn

Old Dec 20, 2007, 01:30 PM
Robert Reynolds
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Bioethanol water mix (e.g. overproof Rum or vodka e.g. Stroh80) as an engine fuel?



The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> The other person involved in that argument thought that was a
>> ridiculous statement for some reason. Any Cessna pilot knows that
>> fuel mixture controls head temperature.
>>

>
> That however is for different reasons..weak mixtures burn faster and
> hotter.
>



Well, that's the point, isn't it? Burning faster and hotter destroys
the engine, so you richen the mixture to cool it off. The fuel is used
as a coolant.
 


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