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Old Dec 14, 2007, 08:26 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
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Should We Do Business With Companies That Do Not Have the Same Copywrite Laws as US?

Just a thought...
If we buy goods from Companies that are from Countries that have lax Labor and Copywrite laws, are we part of the problem?

Do my dollars contribute to the kinds of problems that plague our imported goods?...: such as tainted products, and intellectual thievery?

Maybe I should re-think my purchases from China and some European Countries...where labor laws and copywrite infringement are ignored.

A list of those Countries might be helpful.
I don't want to be part of the problem.
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 11:50 AM
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I don't think it's fair to boycott countries when it's individuals who do the crime.Zoom models in China for instance should be boycotted to the fullest extent because of their actions but I can't fault every chinese vendor for what Zoom models does.
Same with the new found enemy of ours in france....boycott and bash the lilly livered scum but the whole country is not at fault for his actions...

Steve
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 12:21 PM
turn, turn, turn.
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I agree, it's the individuals who steal. I'm just not so sure that some Contries should be let off the hook. If they want to engage in trade, they should play by the same rules as everybody else. That means not turning a blind eye to this problem....and it is a problem.

I'm still upset over Todds' Model Attitude. Only thing is, I'm not sure who ripped it off, and therefore, unable to propery boycott whoever is making it.

Ken
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 01:50 PM
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kkens4
If you choose to adopt the view you put forth you should consider another hobby. Nearly everthing in this hobby is copied or stolen or any other word you choose to use from someone else or some other company from somewhere in the world.

We buy what triggers our "want it" mode. And we do it for as many reasons as you can come up with and some you cant.

Do yurself a favor and go with the flow. Have fun and don't sweat the small stuff.

BM
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM
kkens4
If you choose to adopt the view you put forth you should consider another hobby. Nearly everthing in this hobby is copied or stolen or any other word you choose to use from someone else or some other company from somewhere in the world.

We buy what triggers our "want it" mode. And we do it for as many reasons as you can come up with and some you cant.

Do yurself a favor and go with the flow. Have fun and don't sweat the small stuff.

BM
That's a good attitude
Screw morals and supporting original designers...just buy what's cheap and cheerful and don't worry about anything.Until the day someone steals/borrows/copies your own hard work then I suspect the shoe might be a tad squeakier.
Perhaps people with that attitude are in the wrong hobby.....I always thought we were a pretty honest bunch but due to the thoughts and ruminations of those posting in similar threads who outright support the thievery..like those minimizing the Zoom Models thieving practices...I have changed my mind unfortunately and now feel a need to lock my flight box when I'm at the field with strangers around,For all I know they could be any one of the thievery supporting crew here.Shame ..?? You bet....

Just say no to obvious copies....buy from the originators agents so we can have more new stuff and not stifle the creatives.I mean why would someone bother making a new kit for us when it will be pilfered by some dishonorable twit with no capacity for real design the next day....
If not for original designers making kits I fear we would all be flying copied "ridge runts" rebadged as "slope midgets" or some other atrocity

Just say no to thieves....
Steve
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 03:57 PM
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What Steve said.

John
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 04:11 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM
kkens4
Nearly everthing in this hobby is copied or stolen or any other word you choose to use from someone else or some other company from somewhere in the world.

Do yurself a favor and go with the flow. Have fun and don't sweat the small stuff.

BM


I'm not so sure that anything I use is stolen or illegally copied from any one else:
I fly moulded high performance planes that are built by the designer and shipped through a vendor that the designer knows personally;
I fly high performance motors that are built and distributed through the designer themselves...or a qualified agent;
I fly slope designs kitted and shipped by the designers themselves;
I fly DLGs that are built to the designers specs...that were freely given out to the world.

Further, IF I am guilty of using stolen or inappropriately copied designs, I'd like to know so I can stop.

I would love to see a list started.

Ken
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 08:46 PM
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kkens4
Exactly my point. There is hardly a product that isnt copied in some fasion. Even your high end sailplanes (mine too) were produced using "copied " methods if not actual designs.
As to original designs-- once a design is released all that is required to make it "original" all over again is some slight modification to the original. Take a close look at any "trainer" on the market today. How many are really original? Change the color scheme and change the name and you've created a new design. How many model airplane designs are copyright protected? Not too many especially those by freelance designers--unless they get published.
Once you put an ocean between the designer and the person/company that did the copy there isn't too much you can do.
Go one step further--remember the flap when Lockheed Martin and later Cessna demanded royalties from companies that produced models of their designs? The modeling fraternity complained about the fairness of such a move. Individual designers can do the same. I doubt that many would given the cost.
Remember if it works it will be copied--legally or not. How is the average consumer to know which is which?
You can hold the moral high ground. That is an admirable view. But the average person does not have the time or the inclination to research each and every product to be certain no lines have been crossed.
Given the state of the hobby today almost every item on the hobby shop shelves came from off shore. How can anyone be sure of that products background.
Buy what appeals to you and have fun.

BM
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkens4
Just a thought...
A list of those Countries might be helpful.
I
I would list USA as a start.
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 09:42 PM
Dr John
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Ok, lets start with the USA. To make it a shorter list lets start with original innovators.

Astroflight
Aveox
Balsa USA
BVM
Castle Creations
Dumas
Dr John's
Lanier
Carl Goldberg
Mountain Models
Sig
Stevens Aero

and why can't we find anything from these guys

Citizenship
Heath
Kraft
ProLine

because to many people saved a couple of bucks buying the knock-offs

John
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Old Dec 14, 2007, 10:26 PM
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You can't find anything from Citizenship,Heath,Kraft and Proline because they no longer exist.
They produced some of the best equipment available at the time and much is still in use today. There are electronic repair houses that will narrowband both Kraft and Proline radios. They will then be the equal of most of todays radios. However they will lack many of todays bells and whistles. Heathkit was a Kraft clone but were at the forefront of kit built equipment. Their main products were in the area of home entertainment. But they too went out of the picture with the advent of inexpensive electronics from overseas. Since their big money makers were no longer performing the entire company ceased to exist.
Citizenship was not very well placed among the top R/C producers although their products were quite serviceable.
However few could compete with companies such as Futaba who was building R/C systems for many labels both in the U.S. and abroad.
American labor costs drove the price of Kraft and ProLine beyond that of foreign competition. Remember this is a hobby--not an essential so bargain hunting is normal behavior.
Aveox no longer services the R/C market. They are now totally involved with the industrial market.
Astroflight sells most of their products to the military and industry. You would be surprised where a lot of their motors can be found.
With the exception of Castle Creations which is an undisputed leader in its field the remaining companies are kit producers which is a special field in itself. Kit producers must remain innovative if only to survive.

BM
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Old Dec 15, 2007, 11:58 AM
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This topic has been done to death and it became readily apparent then that some people just will never understand that theft of hard goods is wrong..that's right..hard goods...because even though originally you just stole the idea the originator is now suffering real losses in sales due to the cheap knock off being gleefully purchased by people like Bill here who couldn't give a fried rats behind about anything but saving $20 on a poorly built copy of a great plane.....

That being said unless Bill here wants to share his mode de livelihood so I can ask him if he minds that I steal HIS hard work I am done with these types of discussions .


Steve
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Old Dec 15, 2007, 09:20 PM
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Steve
You have no clue to who I am or what I choose to purchase. What I said was that the average person cannot know what is stolen or what is not when it comes to model airplanes. How does one know what is as you put it a cheap Knock Off? It isn't in the description on the box or in any product write up. Since 90 % of the items in this hobby come from overseas and equally that amount is purchased mostly on impulse how can one know what is actually in the box?
Electronics and motors are another issue. But even then there is no way to know what is legitimate. Even the $20 brushless motors may well have been developed by the company that sells them. No doubt that the technology might not have been developed by that company but that doesnt make the product a knock off.
And Steve you are entitled to use any of my hard work should you choose to do so.
The people who paid my salary did so for years.

Just for the record I was a contracts administrator for a major electronics company among other things.

BM
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Old Dec 16, 2007, 10:15 AM
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If we're going to get our "panties in a bunch" over copied toy planes.Make a moral code about copied planes,then we need to carry that through in everything we do.

As an example, M&K audio was the first designer of the subwoofer for home theater(BTW,M&K was an American company).M&K recently went belly up.How many of you have a subwoofer in your home theater ? If you do,whether its part of a home theater in a box you purchased or a system you purchased the parts for and assembled your self, and its not an M&K,sorry its a copy with slight mods.
If the above paragraph doesnt matter to you,you're telling me this moral code only relates to model airplanes.

So,if we're going to take this "high moral ground",shouldnt we carry that through on every purchase we make ?

Alan
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Old Dec 16, 2007, 03:16 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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I have a Bose system.
Are you saying that Bose violated copywrite laws?...or stole intellectual property?

I highly doubt it.
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