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Old Dec 18, 2007, 07:53 PM
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Man Max ,, I would be happy with what you just pulled
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Old Dec 18, 2007, 08:00 PM
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Thanks V, it's like Christmas when you have a part ready to pull, you can't wait to get out there in the morning and see what you got.
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Old Dec 18, 2007, 08:18 PM
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It looks great Max. I'm glad I waited until you finish your fuse molding before I start on mine. Maybe I will make less (or different) mistakes. I have to get off the MCU project and get back to the model soon or I will go crazy(ier).

BTW. Pardon my ignorance, but what is the joggling tool and what is it used for?

Donald
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Old Dec 18, 2007, 08:31 PM
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Thought a picture might be worth a thousand words. A joggle is just a lap to make two parts fit together. The tool just fits on the mold to make the joggle.

In the Composites forum, the "joggle" and the "wet seam" seem to be the joining methods of choice. The joggle allows you to do whatever work you need inside the part. A wet seam has to be done while the epoxy is still in its "green state", not quite hard but where it can still bond to itself.

And thanks Donald for the compliments, I had you in mind when I was trying to make this more detailed.
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Old Dec 18, 2007, 08:38 PM
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O.K. in the last pix I can see the mistakes you are worried about .... don't be ./.. I have paid good money from good companies for the same type mistakes .... and then had to fix them to use the fuse .
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Old Dec 18, 2007, 08:44 PM
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Well the left half is the test part from a week or so back when I just used gel coat against the mold, the right half is the part I pulled today. I just wanted to show Donald what a joggle joint was. I hope the left half looks better when I pull it tomorrow. We'll see.
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 01:43 AM
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Looking great Max, are you pleased with the strength? how heavy has it worked out?

You will find after you have pulled a few casts they come out easier, I only use PVA release agent where its a very eleborate mould and only then for the first couple of casts. I use spray on wax as its easier and quicker to apply and more even in application

How will you join the two halves together?
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 02:31 AM
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Thanks Max,

I understand now. I had read up on the wet seam which is what I had intended to use. I have been studing this and I am not sure how I will make my mold. I wanted to have access through several openings in the fuse to do the wet seams but I'm not sure how to do the mold for these openings. They openings are on the top where the wing and its associated mechanics fit into the fuse. On the bottom where the battery compartment will be and a couple other smaller places which would allow me access to do the seam. I just can't figure out how to do the cutout sections in the mold. I will probably figure it out when I finish the plug and see how to make the separator.

You are doing excellent work, though and I hope to be able to come even close to your skill.

Donald
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heli_madken
Looking great Max, are you pleased with the strength? how heavy has it worked out?

How will you join the two halves together?
Thanks Ken,
When the halves are bonded, it really stiffens it up. I don't know that it's as rigid as a balsa fuselage, but I really think it will be more durable. From some information I've found, I think I'm on par with a balsa fuselage. I'm at about 1.4 lbs now and I still have cutouts and hinges to go. I still think I'll be at 1.7 lbs or less.

I plan on getting the gear doors working and the access cutouts done before bonding. I hope I can use the West epoxy for the joints and put the halves back in the molds, then clamp the molds. I'm afraid the seams may still be a little flimsy, so I hope they'll line up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanghai_fool
I had read up on the wet seam which is what I had intended to use.

You are doing excellent work, though and I hope to be able to come even close to your skill.

Donald
Donald, I think the wet seam is the way to go. I will probably section up the mold as I go along. I don't think a long joggle seam is a good idea on such a large part. I've learned a lot about fiberglassing in the last few months, hopefully it will get easier.

And thanks, you're only seeing the results after months of mistakes, but I seem to be getting a better handle on it now.


I'll post some more pics of the second half shortly.
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 11:27 AM
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Both halves came out pretty nice. There are several things I would do differently, see the picks below.

Now, on to cutting out the doors and making a couple of formers to stiffen the main access opening and getting the landing gear working.

Note to self: At night with a flashlight in 40 deg weather in 20mph winds is not the best of conditions to be painting.
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 12:06 PM
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Fascinating Max, really enjoying watching the build up, whats next after cutting out doors etc?
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heli_madken
Fascinating Max, really enjoying watching the build up, whats next after cutting out doors etc?
This is where I could use some experienced help. Sure you don't want to come to GA for the winter where it's nice & warm? Man, you sure do build fast.

I think maybe:
Get the gear doors working, servos and all, and maybe test to make sure the main doors can stay closed in a 70 to 80mph wind.
Build the main gear (may take a week or 2)
I'll probably try to build the formers and wings together, I try to do the epoxy stuff at one time, as much as possible.
Test the motor and ESC setup in the wing, make sure the ESC doesn't get too hot.
Finish the wings.
Hover test.
Partial transition tests by taking off at up to maybe 45 degrees then converting to hover.
Full transition test, set wing incidences.
If all is successful, go to 1 motor and 4 variable pitch props, then test some more.
Then, probably a new mold with the wing roots and vertical tail built in, and hopefully offer a kit or parts.
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Man, you sure do build fast
Sad really isnt it I promise I do lead a full and active life, but I am seperated at the moment which explains a lot!

I think developing something like this takes a long time especially bringing stuff to market which I have tried in the past, whole host of things to think about apart from production - marketing, web site production etc.

You are on to a winner though because of its uniqueness, I am sure there will be plenty of people out there who would buy such a kit. I would bank on at least another two generations of design before you get there though. I intend to go fully fibreglass with V3 of my KA-22 (yes I know ) but not sure if I would ever get it to market as electronically it would be a very expensive kit to put into the air

Keep us posted and hurry up!!!
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 01:31 PM
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Enjoyed the mold build series Max ..learned a lot ...

I am with Ken on the bringing to market ..even your bird has a lot of stuff going on and would boggle most modelers minds . The support alone to keep answering the questions on how to do this and get that working is going to be enormous on a VTOL .
I am often at the Helicopter place and in just the 3 or so hours I am there ..he always has 10 or more calls on this very thing ,,,and this is just with a normal simple helicopter ... with maybe a camera mount or two ...but still ...it takes up a lot of his time and the complaints of how expensive things are too .... think what it will be with a kit of this magnitude .
Which is one of the reason I have long ago given up on trying such a feat ,, but I wish you the best of luck on this venture ...

However with that said ... I know of at least two kits you have sold already ,,,right Ken
This has been my dream for atleast 18 yrs now .. a commercially made VTOL that I didn't have to hand make repair parts for and figure out how the thing was suppose to work
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Old Dec 19, 2007, 02:16 PM
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Great advice guys. I will really take that to heart. After missing self imposed deadline after deadline, I know this won't be easy or fast or cheap. It's just one of those things I don't want to look back on and say I wish I had tried.

In reality, maybe a mixer and/or blades for a vtol might be the first items to offer up. I really think getting transition flight will be the key to get things moving.

Thanks for the support and encouraging words.
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