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Old Dec 20, 2007, 12:45 PM
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Always report it.
Outside of that you can press the theft issue if you're capable of good documentation and following up in the right way with the right people.
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Old Dec 20, 2007, 01:05 PM
1 paycheck away from homeless
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United States, KS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cessna 182
One of my favorites was to fill out those magazine subscription cards in the name and address and send 'em in. Lots n' lots of 'em.....
It's also fun to get on the CDC web site & order a bunch of STD literature for them. If they are married or have a live in, I can imagine trying to explain that one away.

I just feel I'm doing a public service by getting the info out to them.
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Old Dec 20, 2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffery
It's responses like yours that make no sense.

Buy a $400 plane ticket and a baseball bat... get charged with assault with a deadly weapon, trespassing, who knows what else. I'll guarantee you that just the bail on those charges will dwarf the $2500, plus the fine/probation fees/time for missed work while sitting in a jail 3 states away. Sounds like a great plan.

Or, work inside the system. It cost me nothing to file charges and I ended up getting what I paid for. I'd say that beats the heck out of going to jail and having to pay an additional god knows how much in fines/lawsuits.

But hey, if you want to go around engaging in criminal activities, be my guest.
Some people can't take a joke, you must watch too many cop shows.
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Old Dec 20, 2007, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cessna 182
One of my favorites was to fill out those magazine subscription cards in the name and address and send 'em in. Lots n' lots of 'em.....
Thank you for recognizing this was a JOKE! Some people are vey strange who lack any sense of humor at all. Naturally, I wouldn't make bomb threats at the airport, but this forum? C'mon, lighten up, like Cessna182.

Isn't there an anarchist cookbook for $30 online that covers this? Anyway, if it's published, did he commit a crime with the creative outlet vented in a publication as that?
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Old Dec 20, 2007, 04:48 PM
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I have a great sense of humor. I also know when to use it.

This thread was intended, I believe, as a serious discussion for people who are looking for factual answers to questions about being scammed online.

There is a "Humor" forum down the page a bit, you can bust all the kneecaps you want there.
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Old Jan 20, 2008, 09:08 PM
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What time limit do you have in reproting it to authorities and such? I had someone rip me off in a trade on RCU and got him barred from there but not much else. It was about $250 worth of a trade over last summer. (mini futana ready to fly for some High torque digital hitec servos, He got the plane, I got a box of std futaba servos with the labels ripped off)
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Old Feb 27, 2008, 10:28 PM
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PAYPAL DOES NOT PROVIDE BUYER PROTECTION ON ANY WEB SITE OTHER THAN EBAY. I was ripped off by Oregon24 recently. I paid him through funds in my Papal account. I filed a dispute with Paypal and they informed me SORRY, only on Ebay. So much for Paypal. I was in disbelief when the web site denied my claim. I called Paypal and received the same message. SORRY, only on eBay do they provide buyer protection. Obviously I was having too much fun on this web site to read the fine print.
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Old Feb 28, 2008, 10:12 AM
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Ebay "protects" you against Significantly Not As Described and Non-delivery of items on transactions for tangible goods.

Recovery of funds is subject to the funds actually being available in the sellers account and his/her ability to respond to your dispute with actual tracking numbers and delivery confirmation.

How did you file a claim? "buyer protection" is probably language that's specific to ebay transactions, but you can still dispute *any* transaction - ebay or not.

For a 2nd level of consumer protection - use a credit card with ebay.
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Old Feb 28, 2008, 10:34 AM
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I was not clear enough in my post. I was scammed by Oregon24 on this web site, Rcgroups. The correct terminology is "transaction disputes". I was told by Paypal, after being denied in a "transaction dispute", that they do not cover "tangible" items not shipped on any web site other than eBay. Since I purchased items from Oregon24 on Rcgroups with funds from my Paypal account, I am not covered. I am simply out the money with no recourse from Paypal. Had I used a credit card, depending on the card, I would have recourse for recovering my money.

dcg9381, you are correct, you can dispute the transaction on Rcgroups with Paypal, but that is as far as they go. They will not return any funds whether they are in the sellers account or not. I called and talked with them on the phone when they denied my dispute. The individual I talked with explained they only return money, if it is available, for transactions on eBay. I was under the same misconception that you are under. I thought they would refund money to me if there was money in the sellers account.

I am writing this in hopes that other people can be spared the disappointment I have experienced. Additionally, their dispute tutorial and all information on their web site regarding "transaction disputes" is sufficiently obscure so as to preclude full knowledge of this fact until AFTER you file the "transaction dispute" and it is denied. I suppose if people operate under the misconception that they have some protection from Paypal while using it on web sites other than eBay, it is good for business. I for one will not use them again. I am also looking into google checkout as an alternative. Right now, the best protection I can have is with a good credit card company.

BUYER BEWARE!
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Old Feb 28, 2008, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willfann
dcg9381, you are correct, you can dispute the transaction on Rcgroups with Paypal, but that is as far as they go. They will not return any funds whether they are in the sellers account or not. I called and talked with them on the phone when they denied my dispute. The individual I talked with explained they only return money, if it is available, for transactions on eBay. I was under the same misconception that you are under. I thought they would refund money to me if there was money in the sellers account.


Wow. This *absolutely* the first I've heard of this. I've probably disputed 20 non-ebay items - with a minority of those going to paypal for "decision" - I've never *once* been denied a claim based on the origin of where I purchased that item... That means online vendors, a dispute over at RC Universe, and I'm sure others that I can't think of.

So if you go into the dispute resolution section of your paypal account and check on the status of that dispute, what is the status that you see?

If what you are saying is the new policy, I'd love to see where they have covered this condition in their user agreement. There would be no point in filing a dispute on a non-ebay transaction if this IS the policy.. And I'd think that their automation would require an auction number...
I'm asking around about it though...


Note, I just checked my disputes, and here's the status history - both are non-ebay transactions. I received a refund on neither one of - at least not in the time peroid related to the claim:

Jan. 26, 2008 PayPal Case closed
Jan. 26, 2008 Buyer Chargeback initiated
Jan. 24, 2008 PayPal Seller’s action requested
Jan. 24, 2008 PayPal Claim granted
Jan. 24, 2008 PayPal Email sent to seller
Jan. 24, 2008 PayPal Email sent to buyer
Jan. 12, 2008 Seller Refund initiated
Jan. 12, 2008 PayPal Email sent to seller
Jan. 12, 2008 PayPal Email sent to buyer
Jan. 12, 2008 Buyer Dispute escalated to claim
Jan. 12, 2008 PayPal Email sent to seller
Jan. 12, 2008 PayPal Email sent to buyer
Jan. 12, 2008 Buyer Dispute filed



Here's another one where I had non-receipt of goods from an online merchant - not a paypal transaction. You'll note where the claim is granted.

Dec. 8, 2007 PayPal Email sent to buyer
Dec. 8, 2007 PayPal Email sent to buyer
Dec. 8, 2007 Buyer Email sent to PayPal
Dec. 7, 2007 PayPal Case closed
Dec. 7, 2007 PayPal No response received
Nov. 30, 2007 PayPal Appeal of limitation denied
Nov. 25, 2007 PayPal Email sent to PayPal
Nov. 25, 2007 PayPal Case closed
Nov. 25, 2007 PayPal No response received
Nov. 19, 2007 PayPal Case closed
Nov. 19, 2007 PayPal No response received
Oct. 22, 2007 Buyer Email sent to PayPal
Oct. 11, 2007 Buyer Email sent to PayPal
Oct. 10, 2007 PayPal Appeal of limitation denied
Sep. 30, 2007 Buyer Email sent to PayPal
Sep. 28, 2007 PayPal Seller’s action requested
Sep. 28, 2007 PayPal Claim granted
Sep. 28, 2007 PayPal Email sent to buyer
Sep. 18, 2007 Seller Refund initiated
Sep. 18, 2007 PayPal Email sent to buyer
Sep. 18, 2007 Buyer Complaint Case filed
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Last edited by dcg9381; Feb 28, 2008 at 04:30 PM.
Old Feb 28, 2008, 04:47 PM
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After reading the fine print (and a little direction) - I think the paypal users agreement indicates that you're covered. I'd call and challenge whomever you talked to. It's likely someone incorrectly decided your claim if they denied it. The specific language that applies to non-ebay transactions and associated coverage is in section 13.1 of the user agreement:

Quote:
13.1 Buyer Protection Programs. If you buy an item using PayPal and either do not receive the item or receive an item that you believe is Significantly Not as Described by the seller, we encourage you to open a Dispute with the seller in our Resolution Center. By doing so, you will initiate our Online Dispute Resolution Process—a step-by-step system designed to facilitate communication between you and the seller in order to get resolution of the issue. If your dialogue with the seller fails to produce a satisfactory result, you can then escalate the Dispute into a Claim that we will evaluate for reimbursement under one of the following programs:

PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy - Our best efforts program to reimburse Users for losses only to the extent we are able to recover the funds from sellers.
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Old Feb 28, 2008, 11:17 PM
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Paypal Disputes and Buyer Protection

I just got off the phone with TWO Paypal agents. I am going to try and clarify what I have stated in previous posts. Admittedly, I have not articulated the process well. Just an aside, the first agent I talked with was very impatient and actually hung up on me. The more I deal with these people, the less inclined I am to use Paypal. The second agent was kinder and gentler.

I have been mixing apples and oranges in my posts and I see where it has been confusing. A transaction dispute can be initiated through the Paypal Resolution Center for purchases made on Rcgroups or any other web site for that matter. There are two types of disputes: “Item not Received” or “Item significantly not as described”. The dispute is filed and you'll inform PayPal about the type of problem you are having and then post a message explaining the situation to your seller. Paypal contacts the seller and informs them of the dispute. Then the seller and buyer have the opportunity to negotiate to settle the dispute. If the seller and buyer can't settle the dispute, then the buyer has 20 days to escalate the dispute to a “claim status” with Paypal.

If you filed an “Item not Received” dispute and Paypal decides in the favor of the seller, then the seller receives a refund from the seller’s account. At some point in time (I have forgotten the exact time.) Paypal freezes the seller’s account. I think it happens when the dispute is filed. That is where the money comes from. If you filed an “Item significantly not as described” dispute, you are out of luck. These disputes are only viable on eBay: NOT ANY OTHER WEB SITE.

In my case with Oregon 24, I had to file an “Item significantly not as described” dispute because I had received a partial shipment (1 out of 4). Since this type of dispute is only viable on eBay, I receive no refund, reimbursement or protection.

That is a summation of the transaction dispute process on Paypal. In short, with Rcgroups transactions, if you don’t receive an item and your seller is not a scam artist, you have a chance to get your money back. If you receive an item that was not as described or not complete, you have no recourse through Paypal

One last topic: Paypal Buyer Protection. What happens if you file an “Item not Received” transaction for your purchase on Rcgroups, you augment it to a claim status and Paypal decides in your favor BUT there are no funds in the seller’s account (like Oregon24 for example)? You have no Buyer Protection on Rcgroups. Paypal Buyer Protection with up to $2000 of coverage is only good on eBay.

I hope you can see how I was mixing apples and oranges here with the two different types of transaction disputes and the differences between the transaction dispute process and the Paypal Buyer Protection.

IN SHORT, USE A CREDIT CARD ON RCGROUPS. THERE IS NO PROTECTION FROM PAPAL IN THE SCENARIO WHERE THE SELLER IS COMMITTING FRAUD.
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Old Feb 29, 2008, 08:25 AM
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That makes a lot more sense. I didn't know that SNAD (significantly not as described) wasn't a valid dispute of a non-paypal transaction. I'm receiving confirmation of this also, although it doesn't seem to be absolute and it's worded very well in the user agreement.

Quote:
SNADs can be filed, but usually will not be closed in the buyer's favor. For those, a CC chargeback is typically the best bet for the buyer.
I would encourage you to follow up a criminal complaint. There is a long list of fraudsters that continued for years until people got together on RCG and other groups to file local criminal complaints...

I agree: Paypal Stinks - All of my business has been moved to Google Checkout - at least I pay reduced fees and I'm aware that I'm not protected unless I pay via CC. As a seller accepting CC's my protections are better!
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Old Feb 29, 2008, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willfann
If you filed an “Item not Received” dispute and Paypal decides in the favor of the seller, then the seller receives a refund from the seller’s account. At some point in time (I have forgotten the exact time.) Paypal freezes the seller’s account.
Correction on this also. If you file an INR, paypal will freeze the funds associated with that transaction IF they are are available (haven't been transfered out) and only if the funds are more than $100-$130 (I forget what the amount marker is). The paypal account is not frozen. Buyers/Sellers can continue to do additional transactions outside of those funds.

In my experience, it takes significant and pervasive fraud to actually have a paypal account terminated... Of course anything that results in a loss for paypal (like a chargeback) would facilitate the process.
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 10:04 AM View Post
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