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Old Mar 10, 2012, 09:11 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodair View Post
I did wind it as per Morris and finish up S1 S2 S3 as one.
R1 R2 R3 as terminal leads to ESC.
The wire was double the lenght to occupier every poles on the stator (12 off) that's why I use a single wire but had to bouble the lenght wanting to keep the same amount of turns as I did previously in LRK 6 poles only first winding. ( see picture)
I was thinking that this config was going to double the force that I acheive with the first winding but it's NOT WHAT I ACHEIVE.
So you did a 20 turn DLRK wind with a "Y" termination. Looking at the TC5 spreadsheet that would have produced a 390 Kv. And that would explain the lower RPM. Your 3S no load RPM would have been around 4800 RPM (12 x 400) and the loaded RPM with a prop 3,600 (75% or 4800).

But the longer too small wire had too much resistance for the current being drawn apparently. I would expect that if you had the ESC between your fingers it would have been getting hot almost immediately. But maybe is just failed quickly before you could figure it out.

I use an 80A ESC for motor testing just so that I have a better buffer against failure. And I have an eLogger and a watt meter and really keep an eye one things as they unfold as I get started with a new rewind.

Quote:
So I am rewinding it @ 6 poles LRK with double wire #24 and see how many turns I can do. (in the 18 T goal.) and what will come out of this in Wye (Star) terminasion.
That should give you a 825 or so Kv, I'm really looking forward seeing what you get. I think the increase in surface area on the wire, along with the shorter length, is going to work for you.

Quote:
The other pictures are the burned ESC's notice that the motor did ran for more then a minute at different throotle with these 2 ESC's and nothing was even getting warm at any rpm's nor the motor or ESC...strange that smoke came out.
The smoke came out whenever I was plugging or disconnecting the Lipo @ 0% throotle position. (idle throotle stick on TX).
I don't know why since I wasn't pulling juice it just look like one of the output FET spark to one motor wire in one case and a short on the other one it was between + and - leads short with the heat sink plate (inside the shrink tube removed here in the pictures) .
In both case the heat sink plate was involved.
There is something wrong there for sure. If the polarity is right on the battery connections and throttle off it should spar not on connection. You might hear a light pop or see a spark at tips of the connectors as they first meet because there is an inrush of current from the battery to load that big capacitor. But after that nothing should draw any great amount of current until you open the throttle.

Make sure the throttle servo is not reversed (off = full) or if it is a Futaba that it is reversed (Futabas are backwards, off = full if the servo is not reversed).

To check it all out, connect the ESC to the motor only (no receiver) and then connect the battery to the ESC. If that appears normal (no smoke or heat), plug the BEC/throttle lead into the receiver (no servos on the receiver) and see if that appears normal. At that point the motor should respond to throttle if the ESC has armed itself. It the ESC does not arm itself, disconnect and reconnect the battery to see if it will arm.

Then start playing with the throttle slowly and briefly checking for heat in the ESC and putting a finger tip on each of the six windings. They should all be the same temp and net more than warm at this point.

Add servos and stuff one at a time later and watch for changes. Eventually you'll know that all the parts are OK

Quote:
Maybe I'll try to resured one using the other but again to do so I'll nee help so for now these are gone in the junk box.
Thanks again, he these few lines will help you to help me. sry the camera was on charge when i did the other post yesterday.
I persist I will have it work..
Roger
Good luck with it, Roger!

Jack
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 01:27 AM
What goes up must come down..
Canada, QC, Saint-Laurent
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Jack,
I was able by salvaging the previous wire form the 393 Kv motor and making it double but end up with 16 T only...that should give a 925 Kv according to the chart...yikes!
Should I try it?...
Or should I redo it right now?
It's not the best looking motor and not getting 750 - 825 Kv target + I am going further away of the low RPM and high torque situation and it will draw more Amp. if I understand correctly right from my Lipo?.
My ESC's aren't the "opto type" like you suggest but I have one from my deep closet and it's 40-50 A maybe I should give this one a try...more welding to do since I have to match the connectors and my radio is a Spectrum DX-5 ( newly acquired used one)

But to test drive a motor I'll give it a try maybe it will encourage me to presuit my goal @ 18 T with a nicier winding ( I should have enough room) or I will end up with another burn ESC !
MHUA AAHH! ...
it smell enough "burned electronics" as it is now... gee that smell is strong and hard to get rid off !

I'll do as you suggest procedures and give this one a try as soon as time permit.

I don't really like using these opto ESC since I have to carry 2 Lipo's on board of the plane one for the RX BEC and one main for the motor

The planes that I am using are not that big ( park flyer size) max 48" ( HZ SuperCub and small Bipes @ 36" span) so adding weight make quite a difference here into the flying enveloppe.

Today the weather forecast looks great so I'll have a window to fly so using the stock DAT 750 I'll try different props with the Super Cub since it is the test bed plane and have a bit of FUN too! (The main target here isn't it?)..

I am really using ESC's that are just a notch over the spec's of a max amp draw spec's of a motor to save on weight and physical dimention ( sometimes it goes in tight place) maybe I should change my approach but I am really having a hard head here also a slow learner but one learned I don't easily forget things if well explain and makes sence.

Gday,

Roger
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Last edited by rodair; Mar 11, 2012 at 01:56 AM.
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 10:10 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
17,221 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodair View Post
Jack,
I was able by salvaging the previous wire form the 393 Kv motor and making it double but end up with 16 T only...that should give a 925 Kv according to the chart...yikes!
Should I try it?...
Or should I redo it right now?
It's not the best looking motor and not getting 750 - 825 Kv target + I am going further away of the low RPM and high torque situation and it will draw more Amp. if I understand correctly right from my Lipo?.
If it is wound and doesnt't show any problems (I am assuming you check each phase for resistance and shorts to the stator with a multimeter) you might as well give it a test.

Sometimes when I got a higher than wanted or predicted Kv I still found the motor useful. When you have increased the surface area and ampacity with more areas it is sort of like you can over-prop the motor a little and get away with it as far as heat building up. I'm sure the efficiency goes way low when that happens but I'm not that focusd on getting high efficiency. My threshold for happiness is more for how the motor runs and flies and it I am simply happy with it or not.

Quote:
My ESC's aren't the "opto type" like you suggest but I have one from my deep closet and it's 40-50 A maybe I should give this one a try...more welding to do since I have to match the connectors and my radio is a Spectrum DX-5 ( newly acquired used one)
I'm not using any OPTO types, all mine have a BEC in them. But my biggest one is a Phoenix 80 and that will better handle high momentary peak currents should I have done something stupid.

Quote:
But to test drive a motor I'll give it a try maybe it will encourage me to presuit my goal @ 18 T with a nicier winding ( I should have enough room) or I will end up with another burn ESC !
MHUA AAHH! ...
it smell enough "burned electronics" as it is now... gee that smell is strong and hard to get rid off !

I'll do as you suggest procedures and give this one a try as soon as time permit.

I don't really like using these opto ESC since I have to carry 2 Lipo's on board of the plane one for the RX BEC and one main for the motor

The planes that I am using are not that big ( park flyer size) max 48" ( HZ SuperCub and small Bipes @ 36" span) so adding weight make quite a difference here into the flying enveloppe.

Today the weather forecast looks great so I'll have a window to fly so using the stock DAT 750 I'll try different props with the Super Cub since it is the test bed plane and have a bit of FUN too! (The main target here isn't it?)..

I am really using ESC's that are just a notch over the spec's of a max amp draw spec's of a motor to save on weight and physical dimention ( sometimes it goes in tight place) maybe I should change my approach but I am really having a hard head here also a slow learner but one learned I don't easily forget things if well explain and makes sence.

Gday,

Roger
On the less expensive imported ESCs you should downrate them to about 75% of what they say it is. Use an 80A ESC at 60A and the like.

And really keep an eye on the older ones that have linear (not switching mode) power supply for the BEC circuit. Those to dissipate the extra voltage (above the 5V to the receiver) as heat and if you put much of a load on the and/or also use bateries with a higher cell count you burn up the IC that is the DC-DC inverter for the BEC output.

Using a second battery for an OPTO is not always necessary, sometimes you can connect it to the battery pack ahead of the ESC as they show here:

http://www.castlecreations.com/produ...ec_wiring.html

Jack
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Old Mar 12, 2012, 11:03 PM
What goes up must come down..
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Thanks Jack,
Tomorow I should have a bit of time to check and finalise this one and perform some tests.
I cross my fingers here since nothing is really 100% "smack on" until tried /tested.
Today, I went and flew my SC weather was really good no wing and warm for this time of the year and no one in the park.
I used a stock DAT 700 with a GWS 10 x 8 SF prop and 3 cells 1300 mAh Lipo's rated at 20C giving me ~ 12 min. per flight and ending with 3.7 v per cell at all time.
It's not a powerhouse but for my age and the way I fly it was simply magic! few loops were perform too.
Upgrading to BL from brushed and GB gives that extra punch to get out of trouble faster and having that "umphh" when needed if this rewind can just give a little xtra 10-15 % more power I'll be more than happy.
One think that I also notice flying the plane and don't know why, when I push the throotle from 75% to 100% there is almost no difference in thrust!
From start 0% to 50% the most of the trust change could be feel easily..then it's more soft 50% -75% but the plane progressivly increase in speed...like it have a mind of it's own ( with a small delay like..or I am having brain farts !) from 75 % - 100% almost no change in speed and thrust most probably just chewing amps for nothing in return?
Is it me?
could this be explain?
I didn't taught of trying a HD propI don't think I had any with me and I was having too much FUN! praticing my new wing with ailerons this time! Yea!
Is the SF prop too much flexible at higher RPM ?
The effenciency of motor that decrease at higher RPM?
Anyway I'll keep you post once some more tests are done here.
also thanks for tips about ESC's I'll take good note of these but for now I have to stick with what I have on hands actually I flew today using a 15-18A HK with 2A BEC only non-progamable one! and I don't hate extrawaeight when not needed for my type of flying.
Was it luck it didn't burn?..maybe.. was it FUN? defeneatly!
Later,
Roger
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Last edited by rodair; Mar 12, 2012 at 11:08 PM.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 09:59 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
17,221 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodair View Post
Thanks Jack,
Tomorow I should have a bit of time to check and finalise this one and perform some tests.
I cross my fingers here since nothing is really 100% "smack on" until tried /tested.
Today, I went and flew my SC weather was really good no wing and warm for this time of the year and no one in the park.
I used a stock DAT 700 with a GWS 10 x 8 SF prop and 3 cells 1300 mAh Lipo's rated at 20C giving me ~ 12 min. per flight and ending with 3.7 v per cell at all time.
It's not a powerhouse but for my age and the way I fly it was simply magic! few loops were perform too.
Upgrading to BL from brushed and GB gives that extra punch to get out of trouble faster and having that "umphh" when needed if this rewind can just give a little xtra 10-15 % more power I'll be more than happy.
One think that I also notice flying the plane and don't know why, when I push the throotle from 75% to 100% there is almost no difference in thrust!
From start 0% to 50% the most of the trust change could be feel easily..then it's more soft 50% -75% but the plane progressivly increase in speed...like it have a mind of it's own ( with a small delay like..or I am having brain farts !) from 75 % - 100% almost no change in speed and thrust most probably just chewing amps for nothing in return?
Is it me?
could this be explain?
That is what I think of as "warming the air around the plane", the Watts go up but there is little or nothing gained. I think it can be attributed to the thin GWS slow fly props flattening out under load and already doing all they were capable of at the lower RPM. And you were probably pushing the RPM limits on that prop too. Did you notice any odd groaning or buzzing sounds at full throttle? That is a GWS SF starting to flutter.

But the same thing happens with stiffer props too. As an example I use mostly the stiffer and stronger Great Planes PowerFlow slow fly props and I see the same thing where they reach a certain RPM and it does not make any sense to use any more throttle than that.

Notice the very small increase in RPM in the attached image when I went to full throttle in this test, the Watts went up, the temp went up, the battery was being used up faster, and little or nothing would be gained in flight.

Quote:
I didn't taught of trying a HD propI don't think I had any with me and I was having too much FUN! praticing my new wing with ailerons this time! Yea!
Is the SF prop too much flexible at higher RPM ?
The effenciency of motor that decrease at higher RPM?
Better slow fly props might be the answer for you as you like the slower flying (as I do too). That is why I started using the GP SF props. And I stumbled onto them more or less by accident as they are not that widely stocked or used. There is some test data on them (listed as GP SF props) at flybrushless.com because I sent some props to Dr Kiwi to get some testing data into the system there. Compare the turust and RPM differences in the GWS and GP props in the prop database there:

GWS EP 10x8 - http://www.flybrushless.com/prop/view/317

GP SF 10x7 - http://www.flybrushless.com/prop/view/267

The GP prop is delivering more than double the thrust at 7,000 RPM as the GWS prop is at 5,100 RPM. And the GWS is at it's RPM limits there and and the GP is not showing any discomfort at all at 7,000.

You DT700 on 3S was probably pushing 6,000 RPM or so at full throttle with the GWS prop and that is over it's recommended limit:

Prop RPM Limits Summary:

Aero-Naut Folding Propellers - 6,000 RPM (16.5") to 16,000 RPM (10" and less) depending on size.

APC Glow/Speed 400 Electric = 190,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)
APC Thin/Folding Electric = 145,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)
APC Slow Fly = 65,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)
APC Racing (8.75 N,W,8.8,Series 40 Pylon) = 225,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)

Great Planes Slow Fly = 65,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)

Graupner Slow Fly = About 88,000 RPM / Diameter (inches) (actual limits vary with size)

GWS Reduction Series or RS (EP marked) props = 40,000-50,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)
GWS 6" to 10" Direct Drive Series (marked HD) = 80,000-100,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)
GWS 5" or smaller Direct Drive/HD = much tested/used at 15,000-20,000, max safe RPM 80,000 RPM / Diameter (inches) or more

Master Airscrew (Windsor) = 165,000 RPM / Diameter (inches) (some consider this to be a little too high, but that is what the maker says is OK)

XYH (EMP-Neodym) = 205,000 RPM / Diameter (inches)

Quote:
Anyway I'll keep you post once some more tests are done here.
also thanks for tips about ESC's I'll take good note of these but for now I have to stick with what I have on hands actually I flew today using a 15-18A HK with 2A BEC only non-progamable one! and I don't hate extrawaeight when not needed for my type of flying.
Was it luck it didn't burn?..maybe.. was it FUN? defeneatly!
Later,
Roger
Good to hear you're having fun, that is what it is all about. I'm fighting bad weather and now a terrible cold too. Can't remember the last time it flew.

I'm still looking forward to hearing how the two strand LRK wind works for you...

Jack
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 02:08 PM
What goes up must come down..
Canada, QC, Saint-Laurent
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Jack,
I saw you even attach an APC 13 x 8 on the small DAT-750 on youtube:
APC 13x8 on prop saver.mp4 (1 min 33 sec)

I also look at your way to attach prop with therma-bands..your motor looks fine!
Sry to hear you have cold, I'll be coming with some words about the 2 wire motor later today.
Wish me luck for now.
I don't understand all the line on your attachment but I'll look at it later now the welding pen is Hot..time to give this wind some tests.
Roger

Update:
-negative, the motor barely turn only small beep could be heard at 0% throotle wilst the ESC was arming the motor
I throotle up it did turn but looks like bad timing again.. so I push the throotle to 25% it simply want stop and could feel the ESC warming up so I unplug everything plug another motor just to be sure of my ESC and everything was OK the motor is defective
SCORE so far:
Motor = 3 Roger = 1
I'll take a break and investigate the why(s) later.
I am positive there wasn't any shorts so it's got to be in the winding..maybe I was too much in a rush or over confident this time and didn't pay enough attention to CW and CCW ? did I suse too long wire to connect do I have some cold weld somewhere? why the noise when arming so low? ..
Now maybe I should wait to get the proper size wire and clean up start from a white page and try again but this time make sure of every step in the process.
Break time..

Roger
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Last edited by rodair; Mar 13, 2012 at 04:00 PM. Reason: update..
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 04:38 AM
What goes up must come down..
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Jack,
After investigation I didn't find too much yet, no shorts to bad winds maybe one weld? so weld the hook up wires back on and try again..and still the same so this time I look at something else like the Lipo I was using during these tests although showing ~ 4.04 v per cells was the one that I used when I burned the ESC previously
So after a quick change of Lipo. TX on, throotle off, lipo pluged, RX on 1 then 3 nice loud beeps and a little shake of the prop!
ET VOILA..
a good DAT 700? is now running (17T of 2 wires #24 AWG LRK Wye term.)

So I give a little throotle then run a few times to full throotle ( no prop ) everything sound good so i install a 10 x 6 HD prop on it and run it at different speed then full for a while and stop it.
I am SURE it have more power than original winding by how much hard to say I don't have any watt meter etc..but I can guestimate 20%, + there is a big difference between the "dead spot" that I had between 75% - 100% throotle position is now almost inexistant.
Note this condition is not relevant to the prop here I ran some test with original motor and rewind one and the dead spot exist on original motor and doesn't with rewind one so ESC factor is eleminated.
I AM A HAPPY CAMPER!
Weather forecast for the WE looks more than great so I'll install this one directly into the BIPE plane nevermind the SCub as a test bed.
Thanks again for your support.
Next time I'll rewind it to a new configuration since it's more easy now that I have a bit of understanding on how things works!
Roger
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Last edited by rodair; Mar 14, 2012 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Update..
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 11:44 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Good for you! I had a feeling that you would be happier with the motor ir you could get more current through it and the two wires did it. You know have just a little more surface area than was in the stock wind.

The thing about not having a watt meter and/or a data logger and/or all the other tools is a little limiting for you. Those will answer all the questions and add to the joys of playing with your new toys. But then they cost money...

When I see the long shaft and the prop mounted with nuts and washers I think back to when I tried it that way too. I quickly learned that, with my flying skills at that time, it was a guarantee of a bent shaft. You mention having noted the Thera-Bands and the prop savers used there, those will save you a lot of grief in the long run.

You commented on the big 13 x 8 running on that with a prop saver, that is a testimonial or sorts as to how good the Thera-Bands work. I would not hesitate to use it in flight that way with two or three bands.

Jack
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Old Mar 23, 2012, 09:27 PM
What goes up must come down..
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Jack,
I finally had a chance to test the rewind motor.
I really push the neveloppe to the limit(s), almost no to say sky but to fry limits.
I didn't need much of an ESC to obaint it,with what I had on hands.
Only good weather and a man ready to test what I rewind if it was making sence.
To make a story short, I am sure I'll need new bearings up to the point that I wonder if the glue of the magnets around the bell wasn't start to give up..
All in all the ol'bipe had another chance to fly OOS recover and land safetly.
With all your expetise I must have been close to the upper limits.
I'll try to post a picture of what at call a real TKO motor doing destructive test.
Later,
Roger
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Old Mar 24, 2012, 11:05 AM
Jack
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Good to hear it is working out and you're having fun.

The bearings on these motors are small, they soon become an expendable item that gets changed regularly. The bearing are cheap and plentiful though...

And makes sure you lube them before you use them. They usually come without little or no lube on them.

Jack
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Old Mar 24, 2012, 11:36 AM
What goes up must come down..
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Thanks for the info's.
I'm working on it right now I can also see with 20x glasses that some magnet wire overheat due to cracks..maybe i ask too much from the little one.
Weather was so nice I didn't give this one a break between flights.
It's the price to pay..BEARINGS!
Now where to get these or are they salvagable due to nice weather..?
How do you stack these bearings and what kind of lubrification should I use ?
Roger
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Old Apr 03, 2012, 09:16 AM
What goes up must come down..
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Jack,
Sorry about my last post not being too clear..
Here are some pictures of the actual condition after really going behong limits.
I when up to 13" prop dia. for fun at the very last flight of the day wanting to know the limits I knowing it was going to destructive limit.
The magnets wires slacken due to over heating...
On the ESC 2 power Mosfet's burned out...engine cut out some smoke could be seen at about 100' from take of point.
The bearings overheat but might be salvagable until new one comes in ( shortage).
The magnets glue into the bell are still OK but one can see some bubbles from the glue surrounding the edge of the bell on about 25 % of them.
I really had fun doing this so. I know the upper limits of this particular windings and I can say that it's an easy winding to do and I had for my money worth.
Next is to rewind it stick to the 10 x 6 prop or max 11 x 8 *

I might try a different winding but I still wonder since I double the wire to have X mass of copper what happen to the OHM law 1/R + 1/R = 1/Rt since I am using 2 wires instead of one...

* 11 x 8 prop size with cool off time is most probably the upper safe limits with periodic maintenance..

Later,
Roger
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Old Apr 03, 2012, 09:51 AM
Jack
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So it you are at 17T LRK-Y on that the Kv would be about 873 by the chart. And comparing the original wind to your two strands of 24 AWG gives you this:

Original - 8 x 0.25mm at 0.0404 mm2 = 0.3232 mm2

2 x 24 AWG - 2 x 0.205 mm2 = 0.410mm2

So you have increased the surface area in the wind by 26% more or so. That would give you about a 25% increase in current capacity and make that a motor that would handle maybe 20A or so continuous? We're guessing at a lot of the numbers here. Time to get a watt meter, right?

I am usually running 10 x 4.5 to 10 x 8 slow fly props on the those motor at close to Kv's like that. Your 13" prop was just too much of a load I guess. I can get the 10 x 4.5 and 10 x 8 slow fly props up into the 200 or 225 Watt range on 3S without overheating.

An APC 13 x 8 Thin Electric will be OK at mid throttle settings too. But if I run that at full throttle it will get too hot pretty fast. I'm using an eLogger with a display so as soon as I get near 130F/54C I back off to cool it down.

As far as the ESC being too small, the only cure is a bigger ESC.

But if you can get the Kv down lower, you can use the bigger props. And, if you haven't done it yet, dropping from 3S to 2S will cool things down a little too but at some loss of power also.

Jack
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Old Apr 03, 2012, 10:10 AM
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All that heat damaged the bearings and glue. The magnets most likely are weakened substanially also. I have been flying my Fokker Dr-1 for 3 years now on a 15 turm wind 23Awg. I use an APC 11X4E prop copy. Great flights and very satisfied. I posted it in this forum way back.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=491
**Neons** Bob
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Last edited by **neons**; Apr 03, 2012 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Corrected AWG size
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Old Apr 03, 2012, 10:29 AM
Jack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by **neons** View Post
All that heat damaged the bearings and glue. The magnets most likely are weakened substanially also. I have been flying my Fokker Dr-1 for 3 years now on a 15 turm wind 22Awg. I use an APC 11X4E prop copy. Great flights and very satisfied. I posted it in this forum way back.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=491
**Neons** Bob
What wind are you doing 15 turns with? And what termination?

I think for the Thin Electric type props the Half Parallel DLRK is the better choice. But I like the LRK wind when using the slow fly props. I use the more industrial strength slow fly props like the Great Planes PowerFlow or APC slow fly props, not the thinner lighter GWS stuff.

Jack
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