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Old Nov 24, 2007, 04:49 PM
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Jimbo45cn's Avatar
Southwest Florida
Joined Mar 2004
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Thinking about my first loop, roll and inverted flight

Finally getting to the point in flying my Eco 8 where I am thinking about my first flip. It's stock except for the brushless upgrade,lipos and a freewheel. It has plenty of power, I have + and - 10 in idle up, just got to get up the nerve. Anyway, how much can the stock head take? I have no intentions of wild 3 d or anything, just want to know what aerobatics others have done with the stock setup. Thanks, Jim
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 06:37 PM
mad heli scientist
Gadget01's Avatar
United States, OK, Oklahoma City
Joined Dec 2005
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You are right at the point I was earlier this summer. I had more than enough for setup, just lacked the nerve. I practiced the simple moves in the sim repeatedly. I invested a lot of time and money into my Eco 8 and wasn't about to just dump it because of a lack of pilot skill.

What headspeed do you have in idle-up? When you're on the ground and you hit full negative pitch, does it dig in and maintain headspeed for the most part or does it decay rapidly?

HS81's on the cyclic are enough for basic putzing around, but if you wanna do aerobatics, HS85's or better are what you need to have enough cyclic authority.

What worked for me in getting over my fear of inverted flight was to gradually push my limits. Steep turns got steeper and more aggressive. My first flip was done at about as high as I could still maintain orientation. It's a little easier if you start a descent and build up some forward speed, then pull back on the stick but not too hard. As the heli goes inverted it will lose altitude. Just maintain the move and it will pull through and then hold a hover as you realize you just pulled off a backflip, however sloppy.

No big deal, really. Next time, as the heli goes inverted, decrease collective to neutral. The heli will still descend, but only a little. The better you manage the collective, the more the backflip becomes stationary and you won't lose any altitude at all. The real confidence kicks in when you flip it on it's back and you hold it, then give it full negative pitch and watch it climb inverted. It's really satisfying.

Good luck!

Eco 8 - first loops and rolls (1 min 20 sec)
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 06:45 PM
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Southwest Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget01
You are right at the point I was earlier this summer. I had more than enough for setup, just lacked the nerve. I practiced the simple moves in the sim repeatedly. I invested a lot of time and money into my Eco 8 and wasn't about to just dump it because of a lack of pilot skill.

What headspeed do you have in idle-up? When you're on the ground and you hit full negative pitch, does it dig in and maintain headspeed for the most part or does it decay rapidly?

HS81's on the cyclic are enough for basic putzing around, but if you wanna do aerobatics, HS85's or better are what you need to have enough cyclic authority.

What worked for me in getting over my fear of inverted flight was to gradually push my limits. Steep turns got steeper and more aggressive. My first flip was done at about as high as I could still maintain orientation. It's a little easier if you start a descent and build up some forward speed, then pull back on the stick but not too hard. As the heli goes inverted it will lose altitude. Just maintain the move and it will pull through and then hold a hover as you realize you just pulled off a backflip, however sloppy.

No big deal, really. Next time, as the heli goes inverted, decrease collective to neutral. The heli will still descend, but only a little. The better you manage the collective, the more the backflip becomes stationary and you won't lose any altitude at all. The real confidence kicks in when you flip it on it's back and you hold it, then give it full negative pitch and watch it climb inverted. It's really satisfying.

Good luck!

Eco 8 - first loops and rolls (1 min 20 sec)
Yeah Gadget, found that vid on utube earlier today. Very nice. Anyway, I have hs81s on it now, and they work pretty well. I am sure it will hover inverted, and yes it does dig in and not bog much. Head speed is around 1450, 1500??. Like I said, collective has plenty of pos punch, so that's not a problem, just getting up the nerve. Yesterday I was flying around and my banked turns were at 90 or better, so I know what you mean. Maybe tommorow. Thanks, Jim
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 08:09 PM
TeamTP,Minicopter,Spartan
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Mississippi 31 years , Now Kotzebue , Alaska 12
Joined Apr 2001
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awe man , I remember that day . mine was with a nitro shuttle ZX in 2001 , I just pulled right through it with elev only. with a slow HS , dont pull hard , just easy , found that out on a Voyager E later that year . come off the top of a loop and was useing alittle neg pitch and for some odd reason I forgot to add collective till it was about level. She bogged and lost HS and hit the tundra pancake style
once you do a few of those , you will have to try a ail roll.
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 08:33 PM
mad heli scientist
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United States, OK, Oklahoma City
Joined Dec 2005
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This is where inverted orientation practice on the sim really pays off.
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Old Nov 25, 2007, 05:47 AM
Aussieflyer
Melbourne
Joined Dec 2005
289 Posts
I just did my first flips on the hurricane today.
Just get some alt then hover, give it some + to gain upward momentum, then pull back on the stick, when horizontal, collective should be mid stick therefore 0 pitch, when inverted feed in the same amount of - as you need + to hover.
On the way back around, horizontal 0 and then finish off back at same + as you do for hover, if u have lost height then more + than hover to regain lost altitude.
Hmmmm, all that sounds confusing, much easier in person to explain.
Good luck.
Also, your heart will allmost be jumping outta your chest so land, give yourself a pat on the back and when heart returns to healthy rate have another go,
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Old Nov 25, 2007, 09:41 AM
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Just take it high and go for it. I still shake after loops and rolls.....Ron
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Old Nov 25, 2007, 12:02 PM
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Well today was a little too gusty, kept blowing me away from the heli area into the airplane area so did not try it. Next weekend I am going to give it a go. Jim
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Old Dec 22, 2007, 10:51 AM
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Well finally got a chance to try it today. Took it way up high, pulled back hard and it , well it protested a great deal and would not come on over. Kind of like a disobedient dog, but kind of hung there at a steep angle and would not flip inverted. Oh well, at least I tried, maybe I'll try a roll tommorow, that might turn out better than the flip attempt. Good news is I had no trouble recovering, so this is going to get attempted again. Jim
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 04:01 AM
Aussieflyer
Melbourne
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hmmm strange it should just pop over. dont see why it would just stop mid way through the manouver
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 05:06 AM
mad heli scientist
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United States, OK, Oklahoma City
Joined Dec 2005
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What battery pack are you using and what is its weight? My Eco rolls pretty well, but I predicted that I would do inverted shenanigans so I mounted the battery up high in front of the motor for good axial CG.
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 01:23 PM
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Southwest Florida
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At the time I was using a 10 cell gp 2000, which gives me the highest head speed with my setup. Also, I was pretty high up so I didn't push it. I think the problem was I was in a hover, and pulling the nose up with the wind. Should have tried it against the wind, but then I started to have reciever trouble and had to land.
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 02:24 PM
mad heli scientist
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United States, OK, Oklahoma City
Joined Dec 2005
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Do you have a tach or data logger to measure headspeed? There's really no magical HS it must be at. If the HS is up high enough, the heli should basically regard gravity as an afterthought and you just have to guide it around. Assuming you have symmetrical blades and your idle-up pitch/throttle curves are set up correctly, you have enough power to do the same things inverted as you do skid-side down. It's just a matter of getting your head around the half-backwards controls.
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 03:35 PM
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Hello Jim, I did my first loops with an Eco-8 too . I can relate to how challenging it feels at first. Here are some of my suggestions for a 1st successful loop:

1. To start the loop, build up some FF speed going straight into the wind. The added lift from the wind really facilitates the first 1/2 of the loop.

2. It is important to maintain the rotor disc as level as possible during the first 1/4, or so, of the loop. If it's a little bit off from the start it could cork-screw badly by the time you are 1/2 to 3/4's into the loop. An ugly cork-screw loop can create a panic situation that may keep you from finishing the loop.

3. If it does go off a bit after the 1st 1/4 of the loop, don't panic, just focus on pulling back and completing the loop before leveling. My bail-out plan was always to finish the loop, then correct (no matter how side-ways the heli would get.. hehe). If I tried to correct during the loop I would sometimes worsen things, lose focus and create a dangerous situation (for the heli that is).

4. Practice doing lots of stall turns into the wind before trying out the loop. The disc should go vertical all the way. This is good practice for maintaining a level rotor disc during the 1st quarter.

5. At the top of the loop be sure to add your little bit of negative pitch so that you don't lose altitude. It is better to add too much negative pitch than too little negative pitch here. Too much negative simply means a heart-shaped loop. Too little or none at all will result in a much faster 2nd half and much lower exit than anticipated (a figure 9).

Anyways, I think the most important thing here is to finish out the loop before trying to correct or if you panic. Just keep pulling back on that stick until you are upright. It's a lot easier than it seems/sounds. You may even find yourself doing multiple loops after only the first try . Good luck.

Chachin..

Edit:
6. Sim practice is priceless.
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 05:02 PM
Supra!!!!!!
Speed Stick 3D's Avatar
Las Vegas Nv, USA
Joined Oct 2005
3,098 Posts
yah thats they key forward movement more of like a flip than a loop.. doing a front flip is easier on the helicopter but harder to do in real life and back flips are easier to do but it puts more stress on the heli..

Thanks Speed stick 3D
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