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Old Nov 06, 2007, 02:18 AM
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A New 1000mm Quad Copter Design

I would like to present my 1000mm Quad Copter design based on a newly available $375 Controller PWB. The Controller PWB is a brushless redesign by the designer (Mike Dammar) of the Draganflyer Quad Copter.

The platform with motors and ESCs for the 1000mm Quad Copter shown can be built for approximately $125. The total cost of approximately $500 (plus a little time with a Dremel tool) provides the following:

1) Adjustable motor to motor spacing from 370mm to 995mm. I set it for a 650mm spacing (325mm from prop center to platform center) as shown in the photo which prevents the props from hitting the ground at any angle up to 90 degrees.

2) Weight 18.8 oz without battery. A two min test flying outside with a 30 ounce system (8.1 ounce payload with 3.1 ounce battery) averaged 88 watts.

3) Very resistance to crash damage with the mix of aluminum and two 1000 mm carbon fiber square tubes. Very easy to repair since no holes are drilled in the carbon fiber tubes and aluminum screw clamping is used. No plastic parts to break.

4) Outrunner Motors cost less than $7 with the mounts and have a maximum power rating of over 100 watts. Maximum lift for the 1000mm DF is over 70 ounces. I had no problem flying it inside my 10’ x 10’ room loaded as a 60+ ounce system (that is more than 2 lbs of payload!)

5) Flying is much smoother and more stable than the smaller frame quads I have flown. Note that the controller board includes a Thermal Intelligence module to help keep the unit level. Here’s a little bit of no-hands flying:

VIDEO - Flying No Hands

Here is the parts list:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (new release: $399) (MDammar@spectrolutions.com)

Qty 4 TP2410-09 Brushless Outrunner with mount - $26
Qty 4 HW_P10A 10 Amp ESC - $58
Qty 2 8mm Carbon Fiber Square Tubing - $19
Qty 2 EPP1045 10x4.5 Props (Set of 2 counter rotating) - $8
Qty 4 MPI ACC363 3.00 mm Prop Saver - $2
Misc Alum sheet (.025” & .050”), 4-40 screws/nuts, Alum 1” square tubing, Velcro - $12

Total = $ 500

The pictures below should give you a rough idea of how it is constructed. I also included a power chart which might be a little difficult to read with the two axis. Note that one of the data points is a 9 minute flight with a 1320 mAh battery carrying a 8 ounce payload including my Panasonic Video/Still camera and foam mount (30 ounce flying weight).

Mike









Alternative mounting approach for the "Gold" version of the -09 motor:






Here is an index to this thread showing more details:

Building and Flying the Kquad

OMM Quad Rev2
Chapter 1 - Overview & Baseplate http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2116
CF Carbon Fiber Stengthening Options - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2211
Chapter 2 - PWB Mount & Roll Cage http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2296
Chapter 3 - PWB Modifications http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3181


Common Problems & Solutions
Antenna hitting Metal Roll Cage: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1933
TI Sensors Visibility Obscured: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1813
Aluminum Stand-offs Shorting PWB: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1610
Checking TI Performance:http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3777

Camera Mount
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=13
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=80
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...68115&page=197

PWB Details
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=59
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=353
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1699 (Rev 2 reveiw)

Optional Gyro Sensitivity Adjustment
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1550
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1557

Berg Receiver Details
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=70

Props Installation and Motor Mounting Notes
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1626
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1456
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1270

Motor/ESC Wiring
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=89
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=343
http://www.spectrolutions.com/brushless_proto.htm
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=582
Brashley's Motor charts: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2309
Rusty's Motor/Prop charts: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2365

Transmitter Controls Setup
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=103

Throttle Calibration
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3631

Flying Checklist
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6868113/tm.htm

High Altitude Flight Videos
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1531
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2131

FPV (Flying by Video Goggles)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1112
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1332
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1681
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1891
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2131
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2236
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2926
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3256
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3468
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3557


Payload Weight vs Battery Fly Time
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=424


Parts Suppliers

Controller PWB
http://www.spectrolutions.com/brushless_proto.htm

Complete Frame Kits
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1261
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3691

Props
http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-29a.html
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=358
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=359

Motors
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=5111
http://www.nitroplanes.com/24oubrmo.html
http://www.quadroufo.com/product_inf...2aac95edf731e8

ESCs
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=4204

Carbon Fiber 8mm Square Tubing
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/carbonfiber.htm

Aluminum Sheet
https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchan...p=2&top_cat=60

Aluminum Screws/Nuts
http://www.fastener-express.com/inde...S&Category=218

Optional FPV components
http://www.rangevideo.com/
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/category.aspx?id=71 (Antennas)

Variations of the Kquad Design

Kocto Quad (8 motors)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=362
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=406

Alternate 2409-18 Motors with 12A Pulsar ESCs
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=296

Alternate Props
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=149

Mod for 2.4Ghz FASST
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=804
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=844
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1748 OMM Rx Converter Rev1
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3316 Modification for Channel 6 & 7 outputs
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3633 OMM Rx Converter Rev2
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3810 Rusty's OMM Rx Converter Sales

FPV Configuration
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1112

Alternate Hitec Receiver
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=163

Audio supplement to Green LEDs
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=198

I3brv3 (Rusty) TREX boom frame
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=206

Mikro Quad
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=104

Tedrobphoto Quad
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=150

Johntee Quad
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=226

Black Dragan Quad
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=610

Sammy B Quad
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=637

MitMit Quad
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1707 (with camera gimbal)

Flyboy_001 Quad
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=4698
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 04:48 AM
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I'm not sure there is much interest but here is a video showing the new 1000mm Quad carrying a video/still camera payload and the resulting video from 120 feet:

Flying Quad VIDEO

And here is a sample still shot:



Mike
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 05:19 AM
Honey,just one more thing
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Rensselaer,IN
Joined Jan 2003
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OK, more info. Looked on there site and didn't see it.Bud
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 06:15 AM
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Bud,

I assume you are asking about the special Brushless PWB I used:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (MDammar@spectrolutions.com)

Dammar does not list this board on his Spectrolutions website. It is something special that he is making available to experimenters who wish to build a custom quad copter (if there is enough interest). You have to email him for details.

Mike
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 06:45 AM
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Hi Mike,

This PWB is interesting. Could you share a little on how it works ? What sort of trimming / adjustment needed ? How is it connected to the system of motors, escs, batteries etc. Thanks.

Regards,
Joe Ling
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Bud,

I assume you are asking about the special Brushless PWB I used:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (MDammar@spectrolutions.com)

Dammar does not list this board on his Spectrolutions website. It is something special that he is making available to experimenters who wish to build a custom quad copter (if there is enough interest). You have to email him for details.

Mike
Hello, Old man Mike from Old man Ted in the UK
All I have ever wanted has been such a machine as you so vividly demonstrate.
As you know there are many machines of a similar nature "doing the rounds" and I have a kit for such a machine ie the XUFO german designed quadrocopter complete with the latest X*ACC module which apparently will improve stability when I finally persuade my colleague to finish off the kit.
You have bought this module from Mike Dammar, made the frame with the motors but WHAT THEN IS REQUIRED! as the machine I have has to be programmed with the required firmware and software. Have you yourself had to work out the program for the machine; also how did you come across this module and what information have you obtained from Mike Dammar?
How stable is the machine and how resistant to mild wind?
Also can the board take more current than you are presently using so that more powerful motors can be used with larger props and a consequent increase in payload.

All in all however, a fantastic machine!

Best Wishes and kind regards Ted Robinson Cheshire UK
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 03:21 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Wellington, New Zealand
Joined Jan 2006
508 Posts
Hi Old Man Mike,

Excellent looking QC. Any more information you have will be gladly accepted.

I'm currently building the UAVP (www.lipoly.com), but would be very interested in a second machine such as this.

Cheers
Colin.
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hello, Old man Mike from Old man Ted in the UK
All I have ever wanted has been such a machine as you so vividly demonstrate. ........

You have bought this module from Mike Dammar, made the frame with the motors but WHAT THEN IS REQUIRED! as the machine I have has to be programmed with the required firmware and software. Have you yourself had to work out the program for the machine; also how did you come across this module and what information have you obtained from Mike Dammar?
Thanks, Old Man Ted!

I'll try to answer your questions without getting too verbose:

There is nothing more to program or change with the PWB. You just plug in the servo connectors directly from the ESCs into the PWB. You need to solder the three wires from the brushless motors to the three wires of the ESCs and that is it.

Since I was the first person to convert the Draganflyer to a brushless design, Dammar allowed me to test and help refine the gyro settings. I asked him to consider selling just the PWB so that experimenters could build their own without having to get involved with the programming and electronics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
How stable is the machine and how resistant to mild wind?
Also can the board take more current than you are presently using so that more powerful motors can be used with larger props and a consequent increase in payload.

All in all however, a fantastic machine!

Best Wishes and kind regards Ted Robinson Cheshire UK
I have flown it 15 mph wind but it is not so pleasant and certainly not suitable for video during gusty wind. The Thermal Intellegence mode is quite good and will keep the unit level with no hands flying for up to 30 seconds once you have things trimmed. It is very helpful for maintaining level flight when you get above 200 feet since it is hard to see that high up.

With the camera payload flying as shown in my posted video, the total current averages just under 9 amps (2.2 amps per motor). Considering that these motors have a max current rating of over 13 amps, you see that there is a LOT of margin. I have flown with these motors carrying more than a 2 lb payload which averaged 22 amps (5.5 amps per motor). But I would recommend keeping the payload around 1 lb or less just so there is a good margin in throttle control. Since my camera and mount is less than an 8 ounce payload, I have plenty of margin. I look forward to soon flying a High Def camcorder which weighs 1 lb.

I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery.

Thanks again for you comments.

Mike
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
Hi Old Man Mike,

Excellent looking QC. Any more information you have will be gladly accepted.

I'm currently building the UAVP (www.lipoly.com), but would be very interested in a second machine such as this.

Cheers
Colin.
Hi Colin,

Thanks. I hope my previous posts provided more info. I will try to show some additional details on the frame design if people are interested.

And the UAVP is also quite interesting to me since I have an engineering background and enjoy digging deeper into the design. I have two UAVP boards on order so that I can play with them in my 1000 quad frame and using the same ESC/Motor combination. I really do not understand why people are using such expensive ESCs and Motors when the low cost units seem to work so well.

Mike
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 05:30 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
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Wellington, New Zealand
Joined Jan 2006
508 Posts
Thanks Mike,

I would certainly be interested in seeing more of your frame design.

OT:
I see that you appear to be fairly serious ham radio operator as well, by the looks of the antenna in the back yard. I've just got back into it after many years of being off air.

73's
Colin
ZL2ARL
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Old Nov 08, 2007, 09:58 PM
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Portland, OR area
Joined Oct 2007
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Thanks for showing such detailed and close up photos of your frame. I was wondering how one would mount a TowerPro motor and you gave me the answer!

In one of your videos it looks like you have some sort of foam mounted on each arm and underneath the frame. Could you provide some photos and more information about what you are using and how it is mounted?

I'd also be interested in more information about how you built the little cage around the electronics in the center of the frame.

Also, I'm curious about what other sensors the PWB uses. What type of gyros does it use? Are they the ADXRS300's like the UAVP, MLX90609's, or something else?
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Old Nov 09, 2007, 05:59 AM
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Thanks for the detailed reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Thanks, Old Man Ted!

I'll try to answer your questions without getting too verbose:

There is nothing more to program or change with the PWB. You just plug in the servo connectors directly from the ESCs into the PWB. You need to solder the three wires from the brushless motors to the three wires of the ESCs and that is it.

Since I was the first person to convert the Draganflyer to a brushless design, Dammar allowed me to test and help refine the gyro settings. I asked him to consider selling just the PWB so that experimenters could build their own without having to get involved with the programming and electronics.



I have flown it 15 mph wind but it is not so pleasant and certainly not suitable for video during gusty wind. The Thermal Intellegence mode is quite good and will keep the unit level with no hands flying for up to 30 seconds once you have things trimmed. It is very helpful for maintaining level flight when you get above 200 feet since it is hard to see that high up.

With the camera payload flying as shown in my posted video, the total current averages just under 9 amps (2.2 amps per motor). Considering that these motors have a max current rating of over 13 amps, you see that there is a LOT of margin. I have flown with these motors carrying more than a 2 lb payload which averaged 22 amps (5.5 amps per motor). But I would recommend keeping the payload around 1 lb or less just so there is a good margin in throttle control. Since my camera and mount is less than an 8 ounce payload, I have plenty of margin. I look forward to soon flying a High Def camcorder which weighs 1 lb.

I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery.

Thanks again for you comments.

Mike
Thanks, Mike for the detailed reply and (I think some encouragement)
Yes, it is the programming side which terrifies me! and if that is taken care of it certainly does give me food for thought.
The machine (kit) I have bought at present ( which incidentally must have cost some $1000 plus) and am trying to persuade my colleague to build after which I have to load the programs via downloads is the XUFO quadrocopter developed by the German guys. The base is much smaller than the one you suggest and I do understand that bigger is better as far as stability is concerned.

Anyway, thanks again for a very interesting insight

Best Wishes and Regards

Ted
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Old Nov 10, 2007, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magellan
Thanks for showing such detailed and close up photos of your frame. I was wondering how one would mount a TowerPro motor and you gave me the answer!

In one of your videos it looks like you have some sort of foam mounted on each arm and underneath the frame. Could you provide some photos and more information about what you are using and how it is mounted?

I'd also be interested in more information about how you built the little cage around the electronics in the center of the frame.

Also, I'm curious about what other sensors the PWB uses. What type of gyros does it use? Are they the ADXRS300's like the UAVP, MLX90609's, or something else?
Hi Magellan,

The bumpers and camera mount are made from a kid's foam stick used to play in a pool. They sell it in 6 foot lengths for a few dollars. I use soft stretch elastic (used in clothes) tied to nylon washers which slide over the aluminum tubing. The mount is then suspended just below the Quad to reduce any vibrations from the motors. The pictures show provide enough detail on how it is used. During the early development period, I had several crashes from 100 feet and higher without damage to the camera.









The RollCage is made from 0.025 inch aluminum sheet cut into two strips 0.7" wide. The strips are bent to shape and secured with 4 screws and a center screw. Not much to it but it does an excellent job protecting the PWB and still allowing the TI sensors a clear view.

The Gyros are labeled as ENCO5EA9 but I have no details.

Mike
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Old Nov 10, 2007, 07:04 AM
Honey,just one more thing
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Rensselaer,IN
Joined Jan 2003
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Are you using your own receiver? If I purchased something like this, I would like to use my DX7.Bud
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Old Nov 10, 2007, 05:45 PM
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Portland, OR area
Joined Oct 2007
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Hi Mike,

Thank you for the detailed reply!

I like the innovative use of the foam sticks and elastics. I'll have to consider using something like that to shield a camera when I get one in the air. It sounds like it provides plenty of cushioning should a fall occur!
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