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Old Nov 29, 2002, 12:23 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Gun control/registry not working in Canada

Interesting article in the National Post regarding the 1 billion dollar efforts to register guns in Canada. It seem that despite spending this much money on registration, the handgun murder rate keeps going up. Isn't this what was predicted by critics of this measure?
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 01:42 PM
DNA
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Have to get those felons to be a little more accomodating and
register their murder weapons. Right?
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 01:58 PM
Human Like You
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Mootsie,


Dude, that's not an article. It's not an editorial. It's an advertisement.

It clearly states this with a block printed "Advertisement" near the beginning of the article.

It would be interesting to get the other sides' perspective if we're going to start citing clearly agendized advertising.

Isn't the gun murder rate in Canada like 1/10th or less that in the US? For a population of 330 million, we have 11,000 gun deaths. For a population of 30 Million they have 125 or so.

What's so different between Canada and the US that we kill each other at a rate of about ten times that they do?

Michael Moore (a lifetime NRA member and gun owner) delves into this and other interesting questions in the new movie "Bowling for Columbine". He got the title from the fact that the Columbine murderers went to their bowling class before they went on a murder rampage.

Some really interesting stuff. Did you know that the day Columbine happened was also the largest single day bombardment in Kosovo/Serbia? Did you know that Lockheed-Martin, the world's largest weapons manufacturer is the largest employer in Littleton, Colorado? Did you know LM also is the largest welfare to work consultant to state gov'ts, coming up with such stellar plans as bussing people 3 hours a day to work 2 min wage jobs for 70 hrs and virtually ensure that single mothers spend zero time with their children?

He interviews Terry Nichols, Sheriffs and Police Officers, Canadians, Militiamen, Marilyn Manson, Corporate CEOs, schoolteachers...all kinds of people.

It's very suprising some of the ideas that come out of the whole thing. No one answer, but just a vague feeling that things need to change from gov't policy, to the goals of the gun debate to how we view one another as fellow americans.

Interesting stuff, though I wouldn't take a young child not ready for some rather graphic footage and some pretty tough ideas/realities.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 02:02 PM
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I think the advertisement is for travel.canada.com.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 02:34 PM
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It's so clearly an advertisement. Look around that paper. The letters section, news section and columnist section don't have the little "Advertisement" right at the top where the text begins.

The other "commentary" also blames liberals for the descent of Canada into hades and it also has an "advertisement" moniker.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 02:47 PM
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Take a deep breath, relax, and notice the Expedia ADVERTISEMENT under the block that says ADVERTISEMENT. Then click on 'National News' on the left, scroll down just a little, and notice there is another ADVERTISEMENT block just over an HP Canada ADVERTISEMENT.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 02:58 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Quote:
Originally posted by NewbieX
It's so clearly an advertisement. Look around that paper. The letters section, news section and columnist section don't have the little "Advertisement" right at the top where the text begins.

The other "commentary" also blames liberals for the descent of Canada into hades and it also has an "advertisement" moniker.
You are joking right? The article is even copyrighted to the newspaper. The only advertisement is for a Canadian travel agency.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 03:07 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Here is a link to the commentary page of the newspaper. If you scroll way down under editorials, you'll find the editorial we are discussing....clearly marked editorial.

Please tell me you are yanking my chain.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 03:14 PM
Mr Mootsie
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As for the Michael Moore stuff. Here is an excerpt from a Forbes Magazine article dealing with the accuracy of Moore

Bowl-o-Drama
Daniel Lyons, 12.09.02

Michael Moore's Oscar-contender documentary, Bowling for Columbine, pokes fun at corporate creeps and hypocrites in his crusade to figure out who is to blame for the gun-related violence in America. But we've found Moore's facts a little slippery.

TITLE: Moore titled the movie Bowling for Columbine because, he suggests, the two kids who shot up Columbine High in Littleton, Colo., went to a 6 a.m. bowling class on the day of the attack.
ACTUALLY: Cool story, but police say it's not true. They say the shooters skipped their bowling class that day.

MISSILES: Moore wonders whether kids at Columbine might be driven to violence because of the "weapons of mass destruction" made in Lockheed Martin's assembly plant in Littleton. Moore shows giant rockets being assembled.
ACTUALLY: Lockheed Martin's plant in Littleton doesn't make weapons. It makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites.

WELFARE: Moore places blame for a shooting by a child in Michigan on the work-to-welfare program that prevented the boy's mother from spending time with him.
ACTUALLY: Moore doesn't mention that mom had sent the boy to live in a house where her brother and a friend kept drugs and guns.

BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun.
ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 03:18 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Another article dealing with Moore's accuracy.

Michael Moore doesn't have much credibility in many parts. I'd be very circumspect in using him as a reference.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 04:28 PM
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OK. I could be wrong. It may be an editorial from the staff of the Canada. Com. Looked to me like that "Advertisement" was addressing the body of the page, not the Amazon, Expedia or Bellzinc ads on the page. I see many ads on the web, but not many monickers declaring that they are such. Seemed reminiscent of a "special advertising section" in the local newspaper that attempts to look like a news or editorial piece. I'm writing an email to Canada. Com and asking them.

Nonetheless, it's still an agendized piece. It doesn't really go into the arguments for. Nor does the other editorial piece. Both demonize "liberals". I can only construe that as a bias whether paid for by a third party or not.

As for Michael Moore. The mother did send her kid to stay with her brother who was bad news and the movie does mention this. It also talks about the situation surrounding the decision. She had recently been evicted, she was working long hours and commuting via the state program. There is also an interview with a number of school and law enforcement officials who basically talk about the insanity of the situation the mother and her child were in.

Here is his own page detailing some of the things the Forbes article takes issue with.

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/about/faq.php

Here are a few excerpts.

The title is taken from the little-known fact that the two killers, Dylan and Eric, were supposed to be in bowling class at Columbine High School on the morning of the murders. At least five witnesses, including their teacher, told the police that they saw one or both boys that morning at the bowling alley for their first hour class. Some school and law enforcement officials later maintained that the two boys skipped that class that morning yet no other witness has come forward to say they saw Eric and Dylan anywhere else that morning.

Q. Is that bank that hands out guns for real?
A. Yes. North Country Bank (with branches throughout Northern Michigan) offers you a wide choice of guns when you open up a certificate of deposit account. In effect, they are giving you all of the interest the account will earn in advance in the form of a gun. The bank is also an authorized federal arms dealer so they can do the quick background check right there at the bank. I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, walked out with my new Weatherby—just as you see it in the film. (I did have a choice of getting a pair of golf clubs or a grandfather clock, but they didn’t have either of those hanging on the wall like they did those three rifles). I learned about the bank’s gun offer from an ad in the local paper that showed a gun across the top with the heading, “ More Bang for Your Buck” from North Country Bank. I still have the account and the gun to this day (though I plan to legally “auction” off the gun for charity, and creatively have it destroyed—more on that later!)

Q. How did you convince Lockheed to let you in their missile factory in Littleton?
A. Well, first of all, the Lockheed PR people would disagree with your use of the term, “missile.” They now call their Titan and Atlas missiles on which nuclear warheads were once (and still are but in less numbers) attached, “rockets.” That’s because the Lockheed rockets now take satellites into outer space. Some of them are weather satellites, some are telecommunications satellites, and some are top secret Pentagon projects (like the ones that are launched as spy satellites and others which are used to direct the launching of the nuclear missiles should the USA ever decide to use them).

Lockheed Martin is the largest defense contractor in the United States. They gave us the MX missile and are now heavily involved in developing the nutty Star Wars missile defense shield. They have five facilities in and around the Littleton and Denver area and they are the #1 private employer in the school district that contains Columbine High School.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 05:26 PM
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Apparently "The National Post" was designed from the get go as a conservative newspaper. Not suprising. I'm sure it is just as comfortable couching things in terms that will support this bias as Michael Moore is in supporting his own bias.

I'm not gonna argue that Michael Moore is unbiased or that he has all the answers...nobody is or does.

I will argue that the movie brings up some good points.

If we are willing to ask the question...I think we have to see that there is a relation between a gov't which often employs violence and a citizenry which does as well.

Some of us have basically deified violence...the bigger the better, until it strikes too close to home...in which case it becomes "evil". Yet there is no connection?

There really has to be something more to this debate than left v right for there to be any meaningful progress.
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 06:06 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Graham,

The point is that I saw this in a Canadian newspaper. I had not seen this before in any Canadian newspaper, and I was looking for some Canadian insight into it.

I haven't a clue as to the leanings of the National Post, nor did I do any research into it when I posted the article.

I am bemused why you would launch into the left/right agenda, when I didn't at all.

Still looking for Canadian input.

cheers,
Tim
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 08:44 PM
Al
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The Post is a right leaning news paper. But essentially the comentary is correct. The registry is costing millions and I suspect that is was more of a political move to placate the masses(read votes) living in Urban areas( read large vote concentration) that feel safer with all guns being registered. Rural Canada does not feel much for the registry. Hand guns have been registered since 1938 (I think) but this hasn't cut down on the Handgun murder rate, likely because criminals don't usually register their guns. At any rate registering firearms used for hunting seems kind of a waste of time and money and probably was also meant as a kind of tax grab but it has backfired.
Just for the record Federal Canadian Political parties :
NDP-Socialist
Liberal-Captialists with a conscience
Progressive Conservatives-Capitalists with Less Conscience
Canadian Alliance- Capitalists in search of a conscience
Bloc Quebecois- Quebec Conscience.
Just to let you know that last election I voted for the liberals (deep sigh)
Al
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Old Nov 29, 2002, 09:40 PM
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Al is correct: handguns have required registration in Canada for many decades. The new legislation currently being phased in after being passed several years ago covers all other long weapons; rifles, shotguns, and even some airguns with high muzzle velocity. This is of course very unpopular in all of the rural areas, and with all of the hunters/shooters living in urban areas as well. There were a few high profile murders involving long guns, most notably the shooting of 14 women at a Quebec university by a madman with a psuedo-military semi-auto rifle, that lead to the urban do-gooders outcry for registration of all weapons. As a law-abiding Canadian, I have already registered my hunting rifles, well before the deadline, but I feel it is a total waste of time and money. As stated by others above, the criminals will not be registering their weapons, but will continue stealing them from the rest of us.

As a matter of interest, I live in the highest drug-use/smuggling/dealing area in the country, and virtually all of the handgun related crime involves the criminal drug element. Most other gun deaths in this country involve rifles/shotguns, since very few Canadians own handguns, and private carry permits are virtually non-existant, other than to and from registered shooting ranges. I was one of the few with a carry permit, allowing me to openly carry my S&W M29 .44mag, but only while prospecting in remote areas. Going to and from such areas, I had to transport it in a locked container, in a locked compartment of my vehicle.

NewbieX comments that our murder rate is about 1/10th of that in the US, per capita, and that is pretty accurate. Interestingly enough, our ratio of police per capita is also only about 1/10th of the US number, as well. Why these differences exist could be a subject worth study, though I have no idea where the answers might lay.

Brad.
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