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Old Oct 15, 2007, 06:13 AM
FLYING MAKES MY ARMS SORE
switchback7's Avatar
Joined Jan 2007
327 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by misfire
Awright, I just tested the bird indoors with the shorter flybar, and I am so pleased! Highly recommended. As mentioned above, I was a bit concerned about it being loose in the Esky aluminum rotor head, and of course about the loss of controllability expected with the shorter bar.

Flies great! No change in hover/trim. The improved responsiveness is pretty noticeable. I think I feel more in control - less lag=quicker to scoot out of trouble and all. Try it, you'll like it!

If the new servo arms fit (see Bullgator above) I think I'll have a nice flying heli. Thanks everybody for a good thread.

Oh, I was thinking that the longer servo arm might be an excuse to go ahead with a tail boom mod (rather than cutting out the slot in the fuselage as per druegeme above). What's the concensus out there on the best boom? I kind of like the carbon fiber guy's, but it's pricy.

Misfire

Check out my nooby pilot post, u can use 2 straws for a free (yarhoo) boom with some black/cf tape round it if u like, I think it looks good its unbreakable and always stays straight.

Spose u could melt it flying through rings of fire, but u may not b ready 4 this yet
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 11:00 AM
AKA Don
bz1mcr's Avatar
United States, MI, Houghton Lake
Joined Dec 2002
7,626 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by d40488
Hi and thanks for many good tuning tips. My Lama V4 is also rotating clockwise. I have trimmed the dial on the TX an much counter-clockwise as possible and the dial on the 4in1 is also maxed at counter-clockwise. Still a slow turn clockwise. It is easily stopped by giving it some left stick but difficult to fly. I tried to change all blades. No change. What can I try next? The Lama flies great exept for this.

//Thomas
Possibilities:

1) a loose pinoin on a motor shaft (Not likely as that usually makes the heli unflyable. They either slip real bad or stick and slip-- either way you can't fly it)

2) Mismatched rotor blades (upper and lower different kinds or damage to one or the other) OOPS I see you tried new blades already-- that would rule this one out.

3) Weak motor --sorry, that is my best guess.

4) Bad 4-1 (never heard of a 4-1 failing like this, but I guess it is possible.)

How old are your motors? Do they smell hot after a flight?

Don
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 03:47 AM
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Joined Oct 2007
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Hello flyers..

I'm new to the message board, though I'm not that new to the lama V4. Here is a vid of my flying:

lama v4 Landing Practice (1 min 1 sec)


I have a question regarding to TBE... I know what it is, but can you tell me what is the cause of it? My chopper keeps TBEing even though I've tried all nite to adjust it. Is it because my washplate is not prefectly leveled? or it's my 4-in-1 setting is not dialed in well enough?

Please advise..

Thanks a lot!
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 04:09 AM
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Joined Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bz1mcr
Possibilities:

1) a loose pinoin on a motor shaft (Not likely as that usually makes the heli unflyable. They either slip real bad or stick and slip-- either way you can't fly it)

2) Mismatched rotor blades (upper and lower different kinds or damage to one or the other) OOPS I see you tried new blades already-- that would rule this one out.

3) Weak motor --sorry, that is my best guess.

4) Bad 4-1 (never heard of a 4-1 failing like this, but I guess it is possible.)

How old are your motors? Do they smell hot after a flight?

Don
Hi and thanks for the reply!

I belive problems with the engine or 4-1 in this case. The whole Lama 4 is very new only 15-20 minutes of flying.

The 4-1 is changed as the first one was not working from the beggining. The problems started some time after the change.

I will change the engines and check the shafts.

Many thanks!

//Thomas
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:18 PM
AKA Don
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United States, MI, Houghton Lake
Joined Dec 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dendog220
Hello flyers..

I'm new to the message board, though I'm not that new to the lama V4. Here is a vid of my flying:

...

I have a question regarding to TBE... I know what it is, but can you tell me what is the cause of it? My chopper keeps TBEing even though I've tried all nite to adjust it. Is it because my washplate is not prefectly leveled? or it's my 4-in-1 setting is not dialed in well enough?

Please advise..

Thanks a lot!

I see no TBE in the video. I believe, TBE is when the heli goes around in a circle while maintaining heading. Like an ice cube in a glass going around, but not spinning.
Your flight video appeared to have a lot of spinning (rotation around the shaft axis. Heli was almost always spinning right (CW), but you seemed to be able to stop it and land on the stool.

Is the problem just that it takes stick to get it to stop spinning? If so that normally indicates the proportional is not correct.

IMHO, if you had any significant TBE you would not be able to land on that stool.

If this did not address your problem, maybe you can tell us more about what you want to change.

Don
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:29 PM
AKA Don
bz1mcr's Avatar
United States, MI, Houghton Lake
Joined Dec 2002
7,626 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by d40488
Hi and thanks for the reply!

I belive problems with the engine or 4-1 in this case. The whole Lama 4 is very new only 15-20 minutes of flying.

The 4-1 is changed as the first one was not working from the beggining. The problems started some time after the change.

I will change the engines and check the shafts.

Many thanks!

//Thomas
Thomas is yours flying like dendogs'? Both seem to be spinning CW. Can you post video?
Don
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:41 PM
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Joined Oct 2007
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Hi Don:

Thank you for your reply.

The video was taken weeks back... back then I had big spinning issue but not TBE problem.

It was not until last nite, after I put the aluminum turbo kit on my chopper, that i found out this TBE trouble; my chopper still spins one way undesireablly, but not as bad as before. However, TBE took place.

even when I hold forward throttle, the chopper flies "diagonally" to front-left at a almost 45 degree angle. This is getting frustrated.... why is my 4-in-1 always make my chopper spinning one way? what why can't I obtain a perfect hover?

How did you guys do to make the perfect adjustment? did you spend a lot of time in the living room with your canopy open and a screw driver?

Thanks for your input~

Sincerely.
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 04:56 PM
AKA Don
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United States, MI, Houghton Lake
Joined Dec 2002
7,626 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dendog220
Hi Don:

Thank you for your reply.

The video was taken weeks back... back then I had big spinning issue but not TBE problem.

It was not until last nite, after I put the aluminum turbo kit on my chopper, that i found out this TBE trouble; my chopper still spins one way undesireablly, but not as bad as before. However, TBE took place.

even when I hold forward throttle, the chopper flies "diagonally" to front-left at a almost 45 degree angle. This is getting frustrated.... why is my 4-in-1 always make my chopper spinning one way? what why can't I obtain a perfect hover?

How did you guys do to make the perfect adjustment? did you spend a lot of time in the living room with your canopy open and a screw driver?

Thanks for your input~

Sincerely.
Dendog can you post a video of the current problem(s)?
Quote:
my chopper still spins one way undesireablly, but not as bad as before
That is usually adjusted with "proportional" on the 4-1 are you at the end of the adjustment? If not add more.

Quote:
when I hold forward throttle, the chopper flies "diagonally" to front-left
Mine has always had some of that. With the heading straight away from me and pure forward stick, it moves forward and off to the left at maybe 15-20 degrees. Likewise back, right, and left are not pure either. But ican go straight forward or sideways with a slight stick correction. My guess is that is about as good as the mechanism is going to get. If yours is really off by 45 degrees that would be more difficult to live with and other than rotating the swash by relocating the anti rotation pin or slot I don't think it can be changed.



Quote:
why can't I obtain a perfect hover?
The hover in your last video looked near perfect (once the spinning was stopped). A perfect hover IMHO is one that will stay relatively stationary with no stick inputs. Typically just drifting with the air motion in the room. Even indoors there are air movements especially around a hovering Heli. It is moving a lot of air.

Quote:
How did you guys do to make the perfect adjustment? did you spend a lot of time in the living room with your canopy open and a screw driver?
I have never touched the adjustments on my 4-1. It is not uncommon for me to adjust the transmitter trims some but it is rare that they ever reach 1/3 of the available range. Most adjustments are very small.

The only time I have had an unstable hover or any sign of TBE, at an altitude of 1' or more, is when blades were fit too tight (almost sloppy loose is best) or the flybar linkage was binding. Flybar linkage is easy to adjust to operate freely by slightly twisting the linkage so the parts that fit on the balls are as perpendicular to the ball mount axis as possible. The two ends are not in alignment with each other when they are fiting the balls properly. I have also had something that looks like TBE develop in very low hovers where the ground effect is directing the heli's down wash out to the side and even up into the heli. Heli's (even full scale ones) have difficulty in a very low hover. Pilots are taught to pass through this area quickly when going up and to use some forward motion untill just before touchdown.

Don
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 11:22 PM
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Canada, QC, St-Bruno-de-Montarville
Joined Sep 2007
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Quote:
even when I hold forward throttle, the chopper flies "diagonally" to front-left at a almost 45 degree angle

Are you flying with stock rotor blades or are you using the rigid blade upgrade?

If you are using the later, try if you can, to put back stock blades to see if the problem goes away.

I am not a helicopter or aerodynamics expert at all but I noticed that the lama has an odd swashplate arrangement.
It is as if it was rotated 45 degrees as compared to single rotor helis.

If you look closely at the way the swashplate tilts when you give pitch or roll commands, you will see that it tilts along a 45 degree axis with repect to the nose of the heli. Also if you look at the way the flybar is mounted, it is also at 45 degrees with respect to the main rotor. It looks like this is common to all the twin rotor coax models (lama blade cx etc...)

If you compare that with any single rotor heli, the swashplate on those tilts front to back and left to right; and also, they have the flybar mounted at 90 degrees with respect to the main rotor.

I've been trying to find an explanation for this special swashplate setup but I have not found any yet. I am guessing (and its a wild guess) that it has something to do with the design of the cambered blades. If that were true, then when you upgrade the lama to rigid blades you have to be sure that the blades you order are meant for this 45 degree swashplate arrangement.

I am really curious to find out if putting back the stock blades cures the 45 degree flying problem. That would be a good clue that the 45 degree swashplate rotation has something to do with the blade design.
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 11:34 PM
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Joined Sep 2007
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Re Tbe

It seems that people get TBE problems after they install the aluminium rotor head upgrade.
If the aluminium head causes any binding on the flybar then that could be the reason for the TBE rotation.
It could be also that the link between the flybar and the rotor needs to be adjusted after the upgrade.
I tried adjusting it on my lama to make it too short or too long and then the heli did have a tendency to fly in circles instead of hovering in one spot.
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 11:42 PM
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Canada, QC, St-Bruno-de-Montarville
Joined Sep 2007
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Re Adjusting the 4in1 for spinning

Don't forget that you have to cycle the power to the 4in1 every time you make an adjustment.
Also when you power up the 4in1 it is important to let it sit without moving while it is initializing the gyro. When the gyro is initializing, the little led flashes green. You should not move the heli until the led is lit a steady green.
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Old Oct 17, 2007, 08:45 AM
AKA Don
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United States, MI, Houghton Lake
Joined Dec 2002
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I also, noticed the swash appears to move at an angle. However, when commanded forward the swash moves down in the front and right while the heli moves forward and left. Seems strange to me, but it actually works pretty well. Does anybody know the explaination?

EDIT:
PS-- I do not think the blades are a factor. I have flown with both stock and Xtreme blades and I saw no difference in this tendency to move at an angle.
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Old Oct 17, 2007, 09:55 AM
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Canada, QC, St-Bruno-de-Montarville
Joined Sep 2007
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Quote:
PS-- I do not think the blades are a factor. I have flown with both stock and Xtreme blades and I saw no difference in this tendency to move at an angle
Thats interesting. So much for my theories.
Did it behave that way comming out of the box?
If not, do you remember what you did to it leading up to the first time you noticed that?

Quote:
Does anybody know the explaination?
I've been asking around for that explanation.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...9&postcount=13
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25370

Have not had any luck in getting an explanation so far.
I might try to post in the aerodynamics section of this forum.
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Old Oct 17, 2007, 10:22 AM
AKA Don
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United States, MI, Houghton Lake
Joined Dec 2002
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This is my first heli. I did not notice it at first, but I suspect it was there. It was not real obvious until I gained the skill and confidence to move the sticks to extremes. As far as I remember it was there from the first time I tried extreme stick movements. You don't need extreme stick to get the effect, it just made it more obvious to me. Actually I find when flying nose away from me I compensate for it with out any conscious effort, but when flying nose in I often drift off line and have to make an effort to move the stick off axis to get the desired flight line.
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Old Oct 17, 2007, 10:57 AM
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When you move the stick forward/backward only, does it drive only the right servo or does it drive both?
Same when you move the stisck left/right, does it drive only the left servo or does it drive both.
On my machine each stick axis controls a single servo, there is no mixing, at least not when the red dip switches in the transmitter are set correctly.
But then I think you said you don't have these switches in your radio.
In any case the radio should be setup so that there is no servo mixing, if there is, then maybe they shipped you the wrong radio.
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