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Old Jul 08, 2007, 01:23 PM
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giniker/spinker solution for one meter sail boat

Hi Guys , I am a new boat builder but an old sailor .
from my exprinnce in real races there is a great eccitement in sailing with genoa upwind and using spiniker downwind .
As I am building my first boat I would like to have a posibilty to use roler ferling on my front sail and when the boat goes downwind I would like to extend my genoa to be a asimetric spiniker .
I have a small plan here which I am weeling to share , does anybody did something on this area ?

THANKS , Erez
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 03:05 AM
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There are a quite a few people round here interested in gennakers, spinnakers, genoas etc. If you can get the sails to hold the right shape and be controllable remotely and simply then you're on to something good! What do you have in mind? Does your 'plan' work?
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 06:59 AM
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I saw an article in a magazine in the early '90s. The spinnaker was furled into a tube under the deck. When the arrangement worked, results were spectacular, but when things went awry, they were not. These were large models.
If you watched the Louis Vuitton series, you would have noticed that even with plenty of well rehearsed crew available, pulling up, dropping and tacking is a complex procedure.
What size were you thinking of?
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 08:05 AM
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Asy spins/genys

Check out www.microsail.com under "innovations" for sketchs of proven symetrical and asymetrical spinnakers. The most important princible is inducing and removing slack from the halyard and from asymetrical/geny sheets.
Doing both an asy spin and a geny on a 1 meter boat is likely to be an excercise in frustration.You'd be better off to consider a small symetrical with folding poles at that size. Also, for the spinnaker syystem to work well the trough(hole in deck) hasto be forward of the forestay. This can be accomplished with a system similar to that used on a 49er with a molded raised piece forward and the same(not like a 49er) at the mast step to allow an unobstructed path for the spin. Do not try to use a big spin unless you are prepared to use multiple spinnakers for different wind conditions.
Good Luck!
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Last edited by Doug Lord; Jul 09, 2007 at 08:12 AM.
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeGrimm
There are a quite a few people round here interested in gennakers, spinnakers, genoas etc. If you can get the sails to hold the right shape and be controllable remotely and simply then you're on to something good! What do you have in mind? Does your 'plan' work?
Hey . I am thinking to stick a geeniker pole stedy on the bow . to have the genoa on a roller ferling . when I give command to the boat to move from upwind to downwind then the front stay will move forward on the pole and same time will roll the roller ferling to open additional 30 -50 % genoa wich will transform to a giniker . same time I have to change the halyard strech on the genoa so in 3 actionss that posibaly can be done on the same winch you can transform the 100% genoa to about 140 for downwind sail .
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfr02
I saw an article in a magazine in the early '90s. The spinnaker was furled into a tube under the deck. When the arrangement worked, results were spectacular, but when things went awry, they were not. These were large models.
If you watched the Louis Vuitton series, you would have noticed that even with plenty of well rehearsed crew available, pulling up, dropping and tacking is a complex procedure.
What size were you thinking of?
Hey . I am thinking to stick a geeniker pole stedy on the bow . to have the genoa on a roller ferling . when I give command to the boat to move from upwind to downwind then the front stay will move forward on the pole and same time will roll the roller ferling to open additional 30 -50 % genoa wich will transform to a giniker . same time I have to change the halyard strech on the genoa so in 3 actionss that posibaly can be done on the same winch you can transform the 100% genoa to about 140 for downwind sail .
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
Check out www.microsail.com under "innovations" for sketchs of proven symetrical and asymetrical spinnakers. The most important princible is inducing and removing slack from the halyard and from asymetrical/geny sheets.
Doing both an asy spin and a geny on a 1 meter boat is likely to be an excercise in frustration.You'd be better off to consider a small symetrical with folding poles at that size. Also, for the spinnaker syystem to work well the trough(hole in deck) hasto be forward of the forestay. This can be accomplished with a system similar to that used on a 49er with a molded raised piece forward and the same(not like a 49er) at the mast step to allow an unobstructed path for the spin. Do not try to use a big spin unless you are prepared to use multiple spinnakers for different wind conditions.
Good Luck!
Hi DOUG . sounds intrensting but I can nott get into the web site , is it on ?
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
Check out www.microsail.com under "innovations" for sketchs of proven symetrical and asymetrical spinnakers. The most important princible is inducing and removing slack from the halyard and from asymetrical/geny sheets.
Doing both an asy spin and a geny on a 1 meter boat is likely to be an excercise in frustration.You'd be better off to consider a small symetrical with folding poles at that size. Also, for the spinnaker syystem to work well the trough(hole in deck) hasto be forward of the forestay. This can be accomplished with a system similar to that used on a 49er with a molded raised piece forward and the same(not like a 49er) at the mast step to allow an unobstructed path for the spin. Do not try to use a big spin unless you are prepared to use multiple spinnakers for different wind conditions.
Good Luck!

Hi DOUG . sounds intrensting but I can nott get into the web site , is it on ?
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Old Jul 10, 2007, 03:14 AM
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it works for me...
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Old Jul 10, 2007, 05:32 AM
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It sounds very interesting but...like Doug lord says, it sounds like an exercise in frustration....especially on a 1 metre boat.
An IOM weighs in at about 10 lb, of which about 5 lb is the ballast weight at the end of the fin. This gives about 5 lb for everything else.
Robbe do rolling reef kits, but these are intended for much larger models. With care and attention and a six channel radio, reliable operation will be possible, but developing parts which are both light enough and strong enough, then keeping the wet stuff on the outside could be a long term project.
Best of luck with it.
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Old Jul 12, 2007, 05:35 PM
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mfr02, is the 5lb hull weight enforced by rule and could be build lighter or is that carbon build, vac bagged, all out racer?
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Old Jul 12, 2007, 07:01 PM
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Joined Apr 2005
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In the IOM class, by rule the minimum all-up boat weight is 4 Kg (or 8.8 pounds) and maximum keel/fin weight is 2.5 Kg (5.5 lb) and carbon fiber is not allowed. Rigs are very closely controlled in size.

In the US 1 Meter class, there is no restriction on hull material, but typically competitive boats are less than 6 pounds. Rig must be less than 600 sq. in. measured in straight lines from head to tack to clew, with roach restrictions.

Other 1 meter classes sailed in the US have pretty stringent sail area restrictions.

Bottom line is, your concept would not be legal in almost any racing class 1 meter boat in the US or Europe. This does not prevent you from experimenting and starting a new class, of course, but it is something to keep in mind.

--Doug
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Old Jul 13, 2007, 06:45 AM
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Thanks Doughemi.
THe IOM class was created to provide a low cost alternative to Marbleheads, and a more user-friendly alternative to the 36 class. This is why there is a minimum weight - it stops use of exotic, and therefore expensive build material.
Doing some sums on AC boats (24 metres long, about 24 tons) gives a 1 metre model weighing 4-5 pounds. Getting all of the working bits for rolling reefing, gennaker handling and flying/retreiving a spinnaker into that kind of weight limit will be a challenge. A compromise might well be needed with hull form, either more beam, or draught, or both, to allow for the increase in weight at or above waterline and get some of the ballast ratio back.
Watching the AC programs, some figures quoted were 24 tons overall, with 19 tons in the fin bulb.
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Old Jul 13, 2007, 10:02 AM
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Joined Aug 2002
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It's huge, but consider the 1:10 scale class and you should have enough space to do what you want. Also, at that size, there are scale fittings (Harken) and you can actually make your boat "look" from a rather close distance like a "real" boat.

The 1:10 concept is to make a boat look like something on the water in real life, and racing is secondary.






Ahhhh, the French are so far infront of the rest of us when it comes to really "COOL" r/c boats !
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Old Jul 15, 2007, 11:31 AM
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Doug, my boat isn't designed to be in a class, just for fun sailing and cool looking. I was asking to make sure that my weight targets are at least close to do-able.

I'm curious though, because at these sized the price of the cloth (carbon/glass) is minimal when compared to the radio's, servos, rigging, sails, and the like. I'd probably guess a difference of $20-$40 between the materials, while making hulls that last significantly longer, so why not open the door? Is it a matter of tradition and you don't want to make the old boats obsolete?
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