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Old Jul 06, 2007, 10:39 AM
God is good
Viper Pilot's Avatar
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Atheists vs believers

Seems there has been a lot of threads lately one this topic. And it's amazing that there is so much babbling about who's right.

The atheists scoff at the idea of a God (or Gods for that matter). The believers try to convince them that they are wrong.

The atheists try to use logic against the believers "beliefs". That is the crux of the argument.

Neither can convince the other that they are right.

So, what's the point?
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 10:52 AM
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The same inane mentalities that have people fighting over sports teams, car brands, and so forth. Each feels the other MUST come to their way of thinking or else.

God must just shake his head sometimes and wonder why he gave us free will.

CD
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 11:15 AM
AustinTatious
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My question to both parties is.....


Why do you want to thrust your beliefs upon people of another belief?

Live and let live.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 11:23 AM
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Speaking as a christian, the atheists are assualted every day by christian expectations. Fake christian posturing is required in many instances. Swearing in, dealing with family. Sporting events, funerals, school, holidays. Im sure that if atheists were left alone, they would have no beef. Designing a culture that forces everyone to feign religion saves noone, in fact it condemns many. The ridiculous concept of forced school prayer is a perfect example. Simple christian caring for humans simply because of their being human has changed many an atheist. That is all the witness that is required.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Dunsel
God must just shake his head sometimes and wonder why he gave us free will.

CD
God knew exactly what he was doing with the "free will" thing.
Free will for mankind is an absolute in His universe. If any part of "free will" wasn't "free", then what would be the point of our existence?

All of the people whom I love and want around me and want to be an integral part of my life are all free to reciprocate... or not.
If anyone wants to sever ties with me and go their own way whether it be my wife or friends or even my dog, I wouldn't stop them from leaving even if I could. At that point on, however, they would no longer be a part of my life nor even relevant to my life.
In the same way, those who choose to follow another path or even deny the existence of God are free to do so. I just hope that they aren't surprised when the time comes and they realize that they might have made a better choice because they would no longer be a part of God's plan nor even relevant to His existence.

But that's "freedom" for 'ya.
When you make a wrong choice, whether it be to pick up a hot-handled frying pan without a glove, or to keep smoking heavily, or to skydive with an out of date parachute, or to ignore the One who is responsible for your existence... all of those choices have consequences.
Some of those consequences are fleeting and only uncomfortable, and some of those consequences last an eternity.

Either way, you get to choose. Choose wisely.

HF
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Last edited by Highflight; Jul 06, 2007 at 11:35 AM.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTatious
My question to both parties is.....


Why do you want to thrust your beliefs upon people of another belief?

Live and let live.
As far as I know, it's only extremist Muslims who "thrust" their beliefs upon other people, typically by "thrusting" a knife into the throat of those who don't convert.

Christians (and Jews) only talk about their faith but "thrust" no beliefs onto others. If you don't want to hear it, just walk away or don't join in the conversation. If you choose to join in, then by your own definition, it's YOU who are "thrusting" your athiest beliefs onto others.
And in case you weren't aware, athiesm is just as much a "belief system" as any organized religion is.

HF
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper Pilot
Seems there has been a lot of threads lately one this topic. And it's amazing that there is so much babbling about who's right.

The atheists scoff at the idea of a God (or Gods for that matter). The believers try to convince them that they are wrong.

The atheists try to use logic against the believers "beliefs". That is the crux of the argument.

Neither can convince the other that they are right.

So, what's the point?


Speaking to your direct question about "the point": Christians are not a selfish lot by definition. Christ was all about total inclusion in His kingdom.
A Christian hoping to persuade an athiest is simply offering a helping hand in a way that could literally change eternity for that person.
In other words, a Christian wants the company of others after this life's existence has been transformed to another existence.

An athiest attempting to persuade a Christian to deny their faith has no goal beyond that of wanting others to share their (athiest's) fate which, if you think about it, is the same goal as the Christian who attempts to persuade other's to follow their path.

Two choices; choose one and live or die with it.

HF
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 11:46 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
And in case you weren't aware, athiesm is just as much a "belief system" as any organized religion is.
No.

It isn't.

Atheism is the default human condition. It signifies the lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods, not the belief in the non-existence of a god or gods. It's an important distinction. Every child of every creature born on this planet is an atheist at birth and remains so until they have been told about gods by their parents or others.

Now there are undoubtedly some atheists who would fall into the latter sphere - as Lrsudog mentioned earlier -but their existence does not define what atheism is, any more than one particular sect of Christianity or Buddhism defines all religion.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 11:47 AM
drops screws
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
And in case you weren't aware, athiesm is just as much a "belief system" as any organized religion is.
Care to elaborate on that?
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 12:03 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
As far as I know, it's only extremist Muslims who "thrust" their beliefs upon other people, typically by "thrusting" a knife into the throat of those who don't convert.

Christians (and Jews) only talk about their faith but "thrust" no beliefs onto others. If you don't want to hear it, just walk away or don't join in the conversation. If you choose to join in, then by your own definition, it's YOU who are "thrusting" your athiest beliefs onto others.
And in case you weren't aware, athiesm is just as much a "belief system" as any organized religion is.

HF
Other than the whole "Impose Christian values via legislation" thing. That's a pretty big "thrust" of beliefs.

And no, Atheism is not a "Belief system". It is simply one single belief; that there is no deity unless proved otherwise.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 12:09 PM
AustinTatious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
As far as I know, it's only extremist Muslims who "thrust" their beliefs upon other people, typically by "thrusting" a knife into the throat of those who don't convert.

Christians (and Jews) only talk about their faith but "thrust" no beliefs onto others. If you don't want to hear it, just walk away or don't join in the conversation. If you choose to join in, then by your own definition, it's YOU who are "thrusting" your athiest beliefs onto others.
And in case you weren't aware, athiesm is just as much a "belief system" as any organized religion is.

HF

Funny, you assumed I am an atheist.

Also, I made no distinction between atheism and organized religion. However I disagree with your statement. As others pointed out a "lack of belief" is NOT a belief system.

I also think you are highly mistaken about the actions of many Christians. We only need to talk a short while about government and existing laws to show Christian impose on ones freedom to do as you please.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by lrsudog
Other than the whole "Impose Christian values via legislation" thing. That's a pretty big "thrust" of beliefs.

And no, Atheism is not a "Belief system". It is simply one single belief; that there is no deity unless proved otherwise.
Even athiests are confused while attempting to refute that athiesm is a "belief system" as can be seen in this following quote taken directly from an athiest web site:

"Atheists do not accept that any of the above imaginary creatures or powers do exist as no scientific evidence is extant in support of those propositions. This is not a “belief”, it is just lack of scientific evidence in their support."

Wait a minute; a "lack of scientific evidence in (the) support" of a theist religion is exactly what a Christian is doing because we base our beliefs on faith, and athiests have faith that no God exists.
If athiests, as they admit, base their beliefs on the same thing, then why is athiesm NOT a "religion"?

But there you have it; proof from the athiests themselves that since both Christians and athiests BOTH base their beliefs on "a lack of scientific evidence", then athiests are following and practicing a "belief system" as well.

Not only that, but remember, it's still a "free will" choice.

The above quote from the link: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/belief.htm

HF
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
As far as I know, it's only extremist Muslims who "thrust" their beliefs upon other people, typically by "thrusting" a knife into the throat of those who don't convert.

HF
Some conversions to Christianity in the early days of the Christian conquest of S. America were rapidly followed by the beheading of the convert. The Inquisition was originally set up in Spain to smoke out Jews and Moslems. The history of Christianity is littered with the murder of non-believers and those who preferred to believe in a different way.
And to argue that we've grown out of it could be refuted by the events of Ulster or the Balkans.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 12:23 PM
All under control, Grommit!
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Originally Posted by martin richards
And to argue that we've grown out of it could be refuted by the events of Ulster or the Balkans.
There's already been a load of Balkans talked in this thread Martin.
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Old Jul 06, 2007, 12:56 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
Even athiests are confused while attempting to refute that athiesm is a "belief system" as can be seen in this following quote taken directly from an athiest web site:

"Atheists do not accept that any of the above imaginary creatures or powers do exist as no scientific evidence is extant in support of those propositions. This is not a “belief”, it is just lack of scientific evidence in their support."
That is no "confusion". That is exactly as I described it.

Quote:
Wait a minute; a "lack of scientific evidence in (the) support" of a theist religion is exactly what a Christian is doing because we base our beliefs on faith,
No, you base your faith on stories.

Quote:
and athiests have faith that no God exists.
No, some atheists do. And do so incorrectly. You are confusing a lack of belief with belief in a lack.

Quote:
If athiests, as they admit, base their beliefs on the same thing, then why is athiesm NOT a "religion"?
Many beliefs take faith. That does not make them religions. I "believe" that I will have a job next week. I have "faith" based on past experience. That does not mean that my belief in my future employment is a "religion".

If you are still confused, you should look up "Religion".

Quote:
But there you have it; proof from the athiests themselves that since both Christians and athiests BOTH base their beliefs on "a lack of scientific evidence", then athiests are following and practicing a "belief system" as well.
"There you have" nothing. The confusion on what atheism is your own. Atheism does not properly consist in a "belief that there is no God", but that belief in God is not warranted.

In other words, you see only two positions: Belief in God, and Belief that there is no God.

The reality is that there are three positions: Belief in God, Belief that there is no God, and a lack of belief in God.
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