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Old Jun 21, 2007, 02:04 PM
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rlboats2003's Avatar
United States, NY, Buffalo
Joined Oct 2003
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Impressive Schooner

Looks like she carries 18 guns - Long 9 or 2 long 12's and 24 -32 lb Cannonades. Nice privateer - Do you have you letter so you can take ships legally that are at war with the United States.

Very nice - How big is it - is it set up for both fore and aft and square sails.

Happy Modeling,
Rich
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Old Jun 21, 2007, 02:34 PM
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Do you mean a “Letter of Marque”? Funny you should ask…I actually do have one of those. My X had one made for me by some online outfit. Wanta see a pic of it?

The ship is armed with 16 each, 18 lb carronades and two 6 lb cannon, has three square sails, a driver (supplied as a double reefed version as well) a topmast gaff sail, a fore gaff sail, and three jibs. She has two sail servos (one, a sail winch, for the 3 jibs, gaff and driver sails, and one for the 3 squares) and one rudder servo.

Length on deck is 55.3" (1.4m)
Hull weight is 25 lbs (11.4 kg’s), Sailing weight is 47 lbs (21.4 kg's)
Ballast keel weighs 22 lbs (10.0 kg's)
Ready for sailing she measures (extreme) 97" long, 67" high and 33" wide (2.46m x 1.7m x .84m).

Here are some links:

A thread here about the ship.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262515

My site dedicated to the ship, her crew and the building of the model.

http://www.princedeneufchatel.com/

The manufacturer’s site.

http://www.modelsailingships.com/


Thanks for the compliment.

Robert

“Weevils…the breakfast of iron men sailing wooden ships!”
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Old Jun 22, 2007, 06:20 AM
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United States, NY, Buffalo
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Schooners are a passion

Yea - I want to see your Letter of Marque, is it signed by President Madison.

I have an Emmy C, that some one in our club built that needs some help but she is all there just needs a little fairing and a hull repaint and then some electronics. I have 2 Emmy C. and an America kit unstarted all new. I love the America but have been thinking about back dating her and making a privateer out of her like the old lindberg Sandpiper- I am just a modest guy I wanted to do a long 12 on a piviot between the masts and 5 -12lb cannonades per side - one size amuniation. (of course getting 11 guns in War of 1812 America will be almost an act of God) I would like to rig her as a traditional Top sail schooner with squares only on the fore mast.

Read one to many books on this stuff - I have the old Revell 1/96 Constitution, the old Model Shipway Rattlesnake, Sultana, some AL Schooners all tucked away for when I can't walk along the side of the pond. Scale sail is kool.

I will check out your websites over the week end.
Happy Modeling,
Rich
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Old Jun 22, 2007, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlboats2003
Yea - I want to see your Letter of Marque, is it signed by President Madison.
Rich…I hope you get them built and give us lots of cool pics. Depending on what scale your building in you may find what you need here:

http://www.modelexpo-online.com

If you need 1/24 scale, the manufacturer of my kit and a couple others of the period (a brig and frigate) may be able to hook you up. His name is Philip Roberts and is a very nice guy.

http://www.modelsailingships.com/

I think my Letter of Marque, is signed by President Madison, I will have to hunt it down and get a pic up for ya...

Robert

Oh...check out this thread about the build up of some of the awsome square sail ships in the works here.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520465
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Old Jun 22, 2007, 07:35 AM
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I pulled the prop shaft and rudder out last night. I increased the servo arm length to get a little more rudder. I also replaced the stock Aqua craft servo with a Hitec. The prop shaft is straight, but the prop (which I couldn’t get off, is the retaining nut threaded clockwise or counterclockwise), is in dire need of balancing. It has flashing on the blades, appears to have a slight wobble and needs sharpened. I found a great thread here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699752 and will try to clean it up. The rudder had no lubrication and the prop shaft only had what I gave it earlier (Quantum Hot Sauce). A new product and good stuff in my fish reels…here’s the skinny:

(Molecular Lubrication. Quantum Hot Sauce Reel Oil has unique qualities not found in ordinary reel oils. Low viscosity levels yield a freer rotation of moving parts, and its special formulation causes the oil to molecularly bond with the base metal. Super-low-friction polymers in Quantum Hot Sauce Reel Grease, along with exclusive tackifiers hold the grease on the wear surface and prevent migration in the gears and drags.)

I have come up with a simple solution to my tow line needs, an Emergency Break Away Tow Line System and will post pics as I get it built and tested.

I’m still waiting on the new shipyard (desk, chair and lamp) to arrive so I can get some serious work done.

Robert
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Old Jun 22, 2007, 02:10 PM
Michael Edwards
Raleigh, NC
Joined Aug 2006
51 Posts
Emma C

Hey Rich, is that the Sterling Emma C Berry you are talking about? I am just finishing one up that I started 30 years ago. It is now complete except for the electronics and running rigging. Boy making all this work on RC would have been so much simpler if I could have planned for all the gear before the deck was glued on!

How are you planning to lay out the sail controls?

Keep us posted on your refinish, some pictures would be nice.

Michael Edwards EC-12 1969
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Old Jun 24, 2007, 03:17 PM
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Before you use your rescue tug on your Schooner, you might want to try some rescues of barges. There is a technique to it, and practice before you really need to rescue your beautiful ship might be helpful.

My setup: I have set up my barges (Rubbermaid's 15" drawer organizer trays) with an 8" weighted line dangling from the bow of the barge. I use a few brass washers for the weight. My tug has a 12' floating flyline towline with a 3 pronged grapnel at the end. The grapnel is supported by a streamlined styrofoam float, and the towline is weighted about 6" from the grapnel with brass washers. I approach the barge from upwind, then circle around it's stern and steam back upwind. This puts the towline under the barge. As I steam upwind, the towline, sweeping under the barge, catches the dangling bowline. I go slow after I see that the towline has engaged the bowline, to keep from jerking the towline and flipping off the bowline. Eventually the grapnel is pulled into the bowline, it catches, and away we go.

The towline pull on the bowline (before the grapnel gets there) forces the bowline to move out from the barge bow far enough for the grapnel to engage the bowline.

It seems to be futile to try to catch the bowline directly with the grapnel, particularly if there is any breeze causing the barge to drift downwind. Manuvering the grapnel to catch the towine is difficult - angles and distances are hard to make out if the barge is offshore any distance. Plus, the prongs of the grapnel will often hit the barge and move it aside before the prongs can engage the bowline. The sweep-under-from-leeward-method rarely fails to work, and is my favorite method. Usually the bowline wedges itself in the gap between prong and styrofoam float; constant tension on the towline then keeps the bowline in place. The only problem I run into is if the towline fails to clear the barge underneath, and thus pulls it to windward before the grapnel gets there.

The heavier the tow, the heavier the weight needed on the bowline. Otherwise, grapnel may not hold the bowline once the weight of the rescued vessel starts to tell. Or, the drifting vessel may stream the bowline at too shallow a depth for the sweeping towline to engage it. For my light barges, even knots in the towline will catch on the bowline and make up a good catch; I probably could dispose of the grapnel for 50% of my catches :-). For your much heavier Schooner, that is less likely to happen, I imagine.

Commercial barges will stream a rescue line while at sea, for the tug to pickup if the regular hawser parts. If you put a weighted bowline on your Schooner, to stream whilst sailing, I think there would be advantages to rescue. For one thing, it would be easier for your tug to tow the Schooner from its bow than from the stern (the usual catch point for model boat rescues; the towline target is entanglement in the rudder or prop). The sails will stream in the wind if the Schooner is towed from the bow, as opposed to catching the breeze and impeding the course home if the Schooner is towed from the stern. A large sloop can overpower a tug if towed from the stern, making rescue impossible if there is a breeze. Since you have a nice long bowsprit, you could even dangle your bowline from up there, away from the hull. This might make a sweep from windward feasible, allowing you to avoid potential prop/rudder entanglement. I'll rig my barge with a bowsprit and try this next trip to the pond. If you were worried about the strength of the bowsprit under tow, the bowline could be fastened to the hull, and merely lead along the bowsprit with weak thread ties.

Just some ideas, hope they help.
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Old Jun 24, 2007, 06:47 PM
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Spanaway, WA
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I dont know if you would want an emergency release unless the tow is sinking. Even then would your tow be heavy enough to drag the Atlantic under? I have used my Atlantic to tow sailboats back to shore a few times and yes the wind did catch me. The wind would either stop my forward momentum or even pull me back a little. If the wind is too high then dont try to pull against the wind but with or slightly abreast of the wind. The tow method that is listed by Brooks works great. I use the same type of hook to recover my hydroplanes and other boats including sailboats. The boat being recovered needs to have a protrusion under the hull like a rudder, keel, hook, or even a prop. I have been able to catch the Kort nozzle on one of my tugs that didnt have the power to come back in but that was VERY hard to get. The pictures below are my tow hook and a picture of my Vac-U-Tug pulling in my friend's Miss Vegas as it is sinking. No biggy on the sinking boat it would not go totally under so long as it is moving. Catching a stranded vessel is tricky and it takes a few tires even tho I have been doing it for a while, dont get discouraged if you dont get it right the first time. Try practicing close to shore where you can see what you are doing before trying it when you cant see the vessels that well.
I use a short length of line with a quick connect used in fishing to attach the hook and its line to my tugs. This line is only about 4 inches and does not foul my prop. The line on my hook is about 6 feet long giving me plenty of room for towing without causing too much feedback from my tow. If your line is too short then any wave, wind effects and any other motion of the towed ship is send to the line and into your tug making the tow very challenging. I hope this helps you with your tug.


Massey

P.S. dont use the crane mounted to the rear bollard to tow off of. It is not mounted very well and WILL come off if your ships jerk around a little.
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Old Jun 24, 2007, 06:48 PM
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I was so curious if the bowsprit method would work, I dashed off to the pond :-). The bowsprit-hook-it-from-windward method does work. I thought it was harder than the sweep-under-from-leeward method, but that just may be due to lack of practice. With this method, I position the grapnel downwind of the barge, then work the tug to windward. Once past the bowsprit, I turn the tug cross wind, then after passing the barge, turn the tug downwind. This path makes the towline form a V pointing upwind, with the tug at one end and the grapnel at the other. The goal is to make the V touch the bowline long enough for the grapnel to be pulled into contact with the bowline so as to hook it.

The bowsprit method does have the a couple disadvantages:

A) As soon as the towline hits the bowline, the barge tries to spin away from the towline; several attempts to hook failed when this spinning away moved the bowline out of the "V" that the tug is trying to create. With a heavier target boat, this spinning away should not be such a problem (my barges are empty, probably weigh less than a pound).

B) You are chasing the barge as it drifts downwind; it's continually trying to escape the sweeping towline. In contrast, with the leeward method, the barge is converging on the sweeping towline. This drift cost me several failed attempts when the barge drifted out of the path of the grapnel. With practice, I think one could judge the initial position of the grapnel better to lessen the danger of the drifting away problem.

-----------
Another rescue method specifically for sailboats is to attach a hook on the side of the tug. The hook is meant to catch in the shrouds, allowing the tug to put the sailboat "on the hip." There are diagrams and examples of this recovery method on the Vac U Boat website. Hook height and design are specific to the sailboat.

http://www.vac-u-boat.com/
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Old Jun 25, 2007, 10:06 AM
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Thanks Guys

Thanks for the information....very good stuff there. I may try hooking the shrouds...but I don't want to sail the schooner with anything hanging off the bowsprit into the water...first I want to try the following. I think I 'm going to try to snag the ballast plate by placing a small partially open eye (to make a hook) on the front of the ballast...hook facing down (See pic of ballast.) I will then try to pull the tow rope around the schooner letting it slide under the hull and get caught on the ballast hook. The schooner weight is almost 50lbs and I think it would easily sink the tug if a wind fills its sails and it takes off. The ship is very fast and the tug would be hard pressed to keep up.

I would only need to do a rescue in the event I get caught in irons again over a long period and say, the sun was about to set or the batteries about to die...or I run aground again and need a tow.

Captain Slick
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Old Jun 25, 2007, 03:40 PM
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yes if the schooner sinks it will take the tug down too. tho if the wind fills the sails it will not sink the tug it will just pull it around the lake a little. If you dont try to fight the wind you can get the schooner back to shore by going with the wind or abreast of the wind to bring it back into shore.

Massey
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Old Jun 25, 2007, 04:11 PM
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You may be expecting too much to have your Atlantic pull your schooner off a sandbar. In real life, tugs usually need the assistance of ground tackle (anchors offshore and big winches) to rescue a stranded ship. Modern tugs, with 9000hp and Kort nozzles have changed this somewhat, reducing the need for ground tackle. My Vac U Tug has neither, and has trouble rescuing itself if I run it up on the beach :-).

You can figure out your tug's potential, though. Measure the bollard pull with a fishing scale. You will then compare it to the "ground effect" of the stranded schooner. Ground effect is the weight of the schooner supported by the sandbank due to lost displacement. You will need to make a displacement table for the schooner, measuring added weight vs draft. Then, you will be able to know, for example, that if the schooner raises up 1" due to running aground, there is a weight of, say 5# no longer supported by displacement but now supported by sand. The ground effect is multipled by a factor of somewhere between 0.3 to 1.5 (depending on the ground, mud=.3, rocks=1.5, etc) to figure out how much bollard pull is needed to pull off the stranded vessel. Eg. schooner aground 1" in mud: 5x0.3=1.5# bollard pull needed. The vacutug can generate anywhere from 3 to 10oz of pull, depending on motor and prop.
http://www.vac-u-boat.com/Modifications.htm

You might still have sucess if you could push or pull the Schooner side to side as you push or tow, helping break the suction of the ground (and reducing the factor mentioned above).

This is all covered in George Reid's "Shiphandling with Tugs", a textbook for tug operators. There are other techniques mentioned in Reid's book.

----------
I wasn't clear on the placement and orientation of your hook. If it's located near the bow, to catch a line swept from astern, then you may need to add guards of some sort to ensure the towline does not snag on the rudder. A floating towline will almost assuredly snag on the sternpost, so presumeably you are going to employ a sinking line, or at least a line with a portion of it sunk, like I use for my barges. After many hours of rescue practice, I can only say I caught the floating line in my prop once. I was surprized, thinking the line would foul more often - I run over it frequently, though I usually coast over it if I notice what's happening :-).
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Old Jun 25, 2007, 06:38 PM
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Yea adding a few bobbers near the tug is a good thing. It will help keep you from testing your underwater winch. Trust me they all work very well and leave you with 2 boats needing recovery. Kort Nozzles are just as good as open props for winding up tow lines so be careful.

Massey
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Old Jun 25, 2007, 07:19 PM
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Reid says tugs with controllable pitch props are called "Hawser Suckers". The prop is always turning on this type of tug - forward, neutral, and reverse are set with the prop pitch. Apparently it is common to see even floating hawsers sucked into the prop, particularly since the normal deckhand (and skipper too) notion would be "tug stopped, hawser safe." Not something we have to worry about, yet, in the model world :-).

I am curious about the bollard pull of the Atlantic. It's 550 motor is bigger than the vacutug (385 standard), but the prop is listed by Tower as 3 blade 30mm while the vacutug has a 2 blade 44mm prop (optional 4 blade 44mm prop, which is what I use); both tugs use the same batteries. One vacutug owner has installed a 12volt, 545 motor (a 540 with 5 poles), and a 40mm 4 blade prop in his for more pull; he shows a photo of his tug moving two 3' sailboats (Fairwinds) in a "railroad carfloat" configuration.
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Old Jun 26, 2007, 07:25 AM
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The schooner has nothing to grab onto below the waterline. She is a weed free sailing ship. I attached a pic of the rudder. I really like the idea of snagging the shrouds with something like a boat davit on the tug. I would not want to get tangled in the shroud and would want to be able to get free again.

This sounds like a great backup plan, and I will start thinking about how I want to add that feature to the tug.

Good stuff here...thanks guys!

Captain Slick

"Always choose the lesser of the weevils!"
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