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Old Feb 02, 2009, 04:22 PM
swede
denial15's Avatar
United States, UT, Vineyard
Joined Aug 2005
3,866 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWS4CEO
Thanks herk1, Tom and Jason opnions.

You are top class flyers!

But there is a lot of flyers who want to have RTF which GWS short of this type of products for years.

Dealers sell very little qty of ARF in this days. They prefer RTF package deal make their business easier.
It sounds like you already have your mind made up about what you are going to do - regardless of what anyone suggests. Look around the threads for a few minutes and you will not find very many people who like the RTF setup they are getting.

While you are looking that up, look at how many people do not trust GWS ESC's, motors, batteries, or other electronics in their planes.

I agree with the above suggestions. Personally, I would never buy a GWS RTF plane. The planes are what people like. If you are so insistent on making something RTF, maybe you could offer a separate electronics package (no plane, just the electronics) for those who want it/don't know any better.
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 05:12 PM
To drive or to fly......BOTH!!
FresnoJay's Avatar
USA, CA, Clovis
Joined Apr 2007
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Well as Denial stated seems you are pretty set on making RTF's, BUT dont forget the customers that got you this far. If you notice Mr.Lin many of the manufacturers that deal in RTF's also make available ARF's aka NPS for those of us that dont want or need the electronics. Make the bulk of your money the best way you can but remember the little folks that have helped you along the way .

Jason
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 11:28 PM
skunkworks
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United States, CA, Clovis
Joined Apr 2008
1,536 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWS4CEO
I am think about if we make those EDF75 models reduced to be with EDF40 powered or twin EDF30s, than the RTF package volume for shipping will be reduced to less than 1/4 ~1/6?

So far an EDF75 RTF cost shipping for over $100 EMS from Taiwan to many countries. Yet, may be $50 inland USA by UPS if far away from California where GWS USA located.

An EDF75 RTF priced at $200~300 but cost you $50 for shipping is terrible!

Wish an EDF40 JET RTF priced at $150~$250, but cost you shipping for $10~15 should be more comfortable?

How do you think?
Wow man you have got to be kidding me the F4 and mig we have been dying for is reduced to a edf55 RTF another are you kidding me,most of us want big foamies maybe GWS should make a couple of 90mm airframes instead of shrinking them. You will be committing business suicide if you do not keep NPS versions avail. Sad day reading this I guess I will go order the fly fly F4 and quit waiting for something that will never be made,LOL
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 01:29 AM
Random Flier
Oxford (UK) and Mtn View CA (USA)
Joined Nov 2002
1,406 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by denial15
... Look around the threads for a few minutes and you will not find very many people who like the RTF setup they are getting. ...
Depends on the RTF. Decent quality ones like recent non-jet PZ fliers (I have 2) are "flying off the shelves" at a far higher avg price than a GWS kit. Built-in reasonable brushless and 2.4 radio system, OK electrics...

On the other hand, the "cheap Chinese" RTFs with dodgy brushed motors and ESCs (probably knockoff designs) are far better viewed as ARFs with replace-only innards.

Also, smaller RTF jets may be a niche that GWS has identified. I'm not sure small+fast is my cup-of-tea, but an off-the-shelf brushless GWS EDF50 or EDF55 poweregg (maybe even including an ESC) would be nice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by denial15
...While you are looking that up, look at how many people do not trust GWS ESC's, motors, batteries, or other electronics in their planes. ...
I'm sure Mr Lin knows what is and isn't competitive in his components product line, and what would be needed in RTFs at various points in the market to be competitive!
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 02:07 PM
Houng-wen Lin
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Shijr, Taiwan. DungGwan, China. City of Industry, California.
Joined Sep 2001
19,445 Posts
Thanks for you guys' suggestions.

So, do you think that GWS should not make RTFs? Unless "Built-in reasonable brushless and 2.4 radio system, OK electrics..."?
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
Houng-wen Lin
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Shijr, Taiwan. DungGwan, China. City of Industry, California.
Joined Sep 2001
19,445 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Angel
Wow man you have got to be kidding me the F4 and mig we have been dying for is reduced to a edf55 RTF another are you kidding me,most of us want big foamies maybe GWS should make a couple of 90mm airframes instead of shrinking them. You will be committing business suicide if you do not keep NPS versions avail. Sad day reading this I guess I will go order the fly fly F4 and quit waiting for something that will never be made,LOL
So, that you rather stay with the larger size?

Even EDF75 consider too small?

But, I feel that a 90mm need big motor and ESC, then large Li-Po pack will cost much higher.

I am worry about there are not too many flyers will be able to pay for the expensive final cost.
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 02:43 PM
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Coolaid's Avatar
Australia
Joined Jul 2005
60 Posts
I started to buy GWS foamies because they were;
a) Affordable
b) ARF's i.e. I could use whatever set-up I wanted and get it flying in a relatively short time

RTF's would ruin all that for me atleast so I would look other options elsewhere. I'm not fond of GWS electronics either due to bad experiences.
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 02:55 PM
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USA, NY, Buffalo
Joined Dec 2007
619 Posts
Mr. Lin,
I personally think the dual EDF55/EDF64, and single EDF75 planes are a perfect size. They are big, but not too big that you can't put them in your trunk of your car.

I also don't really understand the RTF EDF thing. When I think of RTF, I think of packages for people just starting out in RC. Chances are, somebody buying an edf jet already has at least one transmitter.

I guess as long as you also offer the planes as NPS, or with just a motor(and fan) I'll be happy.

-Dan
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 03:17 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,727 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWS4CEO
Thanks for you guys' suggestions.

So, do you think that GWS should not make RTFs? Unless "Built-in reasonable brushless and 2.4 radio system, OK electrics..."?
If you set up a poll for this idea with another option of getting NPS planes out instead, I think the VAST majority of GWS fans who participate here would vote for the NPS planes.

If your goal is to have a product that would appeal to a total newbie, or their dad who knows nothing about RC planes and is looking to buy them a birthday present, then go ahead and pump out RTF kits, but I don't think that is going to be the cashflow salvation you think it is. The rest of us will look elsewhere for new or replacement planes. And what will that newbie want to buy from you for their second plane, assuming they can fly that first one (an EDF? ) and not get discouraged... another RTF? With another TX they don't need? I don't think so!

We don't need yet another 2.4 system with all it's proprietary RXs, etc. so don't waste time and resources building one. The first cheap TX will get outgrown quickly for anyone who continues with the hobby. Your existing TXs are cheap and good enough for someone to try to fly with and see if they want to go further.

You can package them as a RTF with "learner planes" like your existing SlowStick or E-Starter if you want, but it would be just as good to offer them in a separate package to be purchased if needed. Ditto for the servos and RX... package as a "flight pack" as other manufacturer's do. Ditto for the motors. They don't all need to be in one big box that is too expensive to ship (per your criteria), unless that's all the LHS will stock.

But whatever you do, don't stop the flow of NPS planes or you will continue to lose your current customer base.
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 05:26 PM
Houng-wen Lin
GWS4CEO's Avatar
Shijr, Taiwan. DungGwan, China. City of Industry, California.
Joined Sep 2001
19,445 Posts
NPS will keep going. But just sell not much qty.

The ex-cheif sales had advised me 95% volume should be RTF.

He told me due to GWS did not supply RTF, so the sales decreased.

I prefer promote NPS, but he said that NPS had no profit, big box but very little money compared with RTF....

He said the big qty moved to RTFs.
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 06:42 PM
swede
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United States, UT, Vineyard
Joined Aug 2005
3,866 Posts
I agree with thrashmaster71 and Tom Frank. That was well stated, and I think good advice.

Your sales guy is probably not too far off the mark, as far as profit margins go; but the desirability of an RTF is much less. You may make more per kit, but a lot fewer people will want them.
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 07:36 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,727 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWS4CEO
NPS will keep going. But just sell not much qty.

The ex-cheif sales had advised me 95% volume should be RTF.

He told me due to GWS did not supply RTF, so the sales decreased.

I prefer promote NPS, but he said that NPS had no profit, big box but very little money compared with RTF....

He said the big qty moved to RTFs.
Is this the same ex-sales manager that shocked you a while back that he had not even visited the LHS down the street? I'd take what he says with a grain of salt! He's going to think of everything he can to justify why sales are down. Could it be because he was not doing a good job???

If you or he happened to wander into one of the LHS where I live, you would be shocked. There are essentially no GWS planes there, no servos, no TX/RX... only props. If lucky, you might spot a Slow Stick on a good day, but that's about it. You can't sell what people cannot see! And you WILL see ARFs... in BIG boxes... just not yours!

Wake up and smell the coffee!

For starters, you could get Caliber Hobby to revise their shipping cost for small items. Charging $10 flat rate for a $2 part is ridiculuous!
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Old Feb 11, 2009, 11:16 PM
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fenno's Avatar
Sydney, Australia
Joined Jan 2009
39 Posts
Please take note Mr Lin...

I started off with GWS park flyers a few years ago...good models (though under powered) and reasonably priced (without transmitter). In effect I was buying the airframe and was happy to put in my own motors and RX. I bought quite a few, then came the supply issue...it dried up here in Australia.

Last weekend I went to my local hobby store and please take note here Mr Lin....I bought 4 (FOUR) Thunder tiger DGA models for $100 each (with a decent brushless motor included)....and I'll be buying a lot more!!!

Thanks to sensible marketing Thunder Tiger have now achieved a sizable share of the foamie market here simply because you're company does not deliver what its regular customers want. We do not want radios with every airplane, we do not need batteries, esc's or motors (though if you want to include motors with your models that would be fine...as long as they were powerful enough to do the job). What we do want is a good quality airframe, a reasonable price and above all availability.

By all means if you want to do a trainer with a radio, esc, battery pack etc then go right ahead...it would be a good introduction package for the learner but if you want the business of the guys like me, who spend money regularly on our hobby then you need to tailor your product to suit us.

Just pack the airplane in a box...maybe put a brushless with it and get them out to stores.

Kind regards...
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Old Feb 12, 2009, 02:15 AM
Random Flier
Oxford (UK) and Mtn View CA (USA)
Joined Nov 2002
1,406 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWS4CEO
Thanks for you guys' suggestions.

So, do you think that GWS should not make RTFs? Unless "Built-in reasonable brushless and 2.4 radio system, OK electrics..."?
Well, I know what I would do!
Retail chain:
- Regular kits: only NPS (don't bother with SG or brushed motors)
- Trainer kits: bundle with motor / ESC / Battery / maybe cheapTX with trainer cord - with connectors in place so no soldering! - "learn the fun of building as well as flying!". Provide NPS kits as "Spare airframe" but also for kitbashers.
- Brushed motor line: minimize. Consider phasing out. These are "last decade".
- Brushless motors: consider in a bundled motor+ESC combo and bundled flight pack for the NPS kits to minimize inventory.
- Servos: relaunch as an alternative to Hitec.

R&D:
- Electrics: take a long hard look at what sells and what doesn't. What to do about 2.4GHz? License / take over a smaller player like Airtronics or XPS?
- Batteries: jump ahead of LiPo curve; maybe move to LiFEPo4 with appropriate ESC and charger support
- Airframes: what GWS is famous for. Ensure revisions / updates / new models on a regular shedule to keep interest in GWS in shops. Take note that GWS retail decline matches reduced output of new models. Note that jets are not the saviour of GWS.

Just my 2c
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Old Feb 12, 2009, 08:31 AM
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USA, NY, Buffalo
Joined Dec 2007
619 Posts
I really don't think that RTF is the ultimate answer, at least if you are looking for return customers. I hate seeing a plane that I like only to find that I would have to buy a transmitter that I don't need. That is when I go and look for alternatives. So far, GWS has been that alternative. I'm not saying that you shouldn't put out RTF packages, but I think that making RTFs 95% of your output is a bit much. Thats assuming that close to 95% of your future sales will be to people who are just starting out in RC. That doesn't seem even remotely realistic to me.

That being said, I don't want you to think that I am totally against RTFs. I started in this hobby with an RTF. I think that offering the Estarter, Slow Stick, Cub, and Beaver as RTF packages would be a great way to get new people into the hobby and new customers. The more the better. I just don't see how offering planes that are meant for advanced flyers in RTF packages makes any sense.
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