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Old May 25, 2007, 10:09 PM
Starting to Rebuild
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Fayetteville NC
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I like that set of threads. I think my greatest use would be to get out over the old gravel mine to find some of the holes that cant be found from the ground. I love to fish out there cause one there is no agrecultural or industrial run-off no trash, and only a few people can fish out there. There are some pits and small ox-bows around here that are unknown to people. Such places have the best fishing I ever had.
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Old May 25, 2007, 10:32 PM
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Sounds cool Brian. Keep us posted if you don't mind.

Dan
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Old May 26, 2007, 01:06 AM
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Actually I think the prospect of using a model plane to blow something up is less likely because of several factors. Let's say you want to heft a model plane weighing around 20 lb into the air. That would require a fair amount of space, open space. Next, it would create a lot more interest immediately from the general public. It would be very hard to conceal something that large long enough to get it airborne. If you were to try to fly even a "harmless" rc plane near a place that was sensetive you would attract a LOT of attention very quickly.
If you were wanting to launch something capable of blowing something else up, it would be much quicker and easier to simply get out of your car, fire a shoulder fired missile, then leave just as quickly. Simple as pointing a gun.
The main objective of any assassin is concealment. Why do you think Timothy McVeigh used a Ryder truck? To keep from arousing interest. The main weapon of any attacker would be stealth.
Hit them with what they least expect. A model plane would arouse far too much susipicion to be a viable weapon. Especially in an urban environment or near any sensetive target.
I would hope that any prospective terrorist would realise that using an rc plane or even a UAV of some sort would be basically like trying to make a shot in the dark. It would be nearly impossible for him or her to guarentee any success whatsoever.
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Old May 26, 2007, 03:36 AM
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Good point, randall1959. Recently, a hobbyist decided to get some photos of a football game. So, he flew his Slow Stick over the packed stadium during the game. Dumb move on his part for sure, because the cops were waiting for him to land. What ever happened to him since then, I haven't a clue. But he won't be doing it again, even if he doesn't have to spend time in jail. I think he at least ran into some financial difficulties after that episode.

I think the main issue the FAA has, is in avoiding full-scale aircraft. And after that, protecting the "good old boy" network. Hobbyists are more likely to have localized problems as a result of their own carelessness. Parks get closed to R/C all the time due to complaints from local residents. It certainly doesn't make it much easier for those with small electrics, and it makes it more difficult for those who wish to persue the UAV hobby for scientific interests. I would certainly enjoy AP as a hobby, but I am not sure what type of attention my interests would draw from folks around my vicinity. So, I tend to be somewhat hesitant for the time being.

My own observations, is that these reporters and politicians will somehow get discredited for making a small issue a big one. But, the networks make money off of this stuff, just like they do when they broadcast Jerry Springer!

NorfolkSouthern
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Old May 26, 2007, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randall1959
The main objective of any assassin is concealment. Why do you think Timothy McVeigh used a Ryder truck? To keep from arousing interest.
I should have listened to Dan's advice at the start of this thread and not jumped into this discussion at all ... :-)

I hear that the FBI is really good at tracking back to determine who owned the left over bits after an explosion. I seem to recall they had the serial # off the rider truck very quickly and were hot on the trail. Once you start looking at combinations of things ... who bought both this gizmo and that gizmo and combine that with a list of who would have had the ability to do something, your list of suspects can get really short really quick.

Here's a random bit of interesting irony. I and my family were driving back from Dallas to MN after visiting my folks for Christmas. It just so happened that the govt's investigation into the investigation of the OK City bombing was released that day, and we were driving through OK and found a radio station that was reading the report verbatim.

This final, final investigation was an attempt to silence all the conspiracy theorists ... not that it did any good. But interestingly, they tracked down McVeigh's every move going back something like a year ... which restaurants he went to, when he visted which storage locker, who he visited, etc ... down to an *incredible* level of detail. All of this was in the report. This report even stated the mile marker on I-35 where McVeigh was pulled over for speeding and apprehended.

Coincidently, as they read the mile marker over the radio station, we were one mile away, heading in the correct direction. I found it interesting that the roadway leading up to pull over spot was a *really* long, slow, steady incline. Your car could easily start to bog down just a bit, and if you weren't paying close attention, it would be very easy to let your speed run up too high when you compensated (assuming no cruise control.) And very conveniently, there was an overpass at the top of the long incline for a state patrol to hide behind.

Sort of weird and freaky how the timing of that worked out, but I could see where the spot would be a favorite speed trap.

So anyway, my point when I started (if I had one) was probably something along the lines of a person or group is going to have to be *really* smart, *really* careful, and very lucky if they do something stupid and it isn't traced back to themselves in about 20 minutes. And as someone else mentioned, a model airplane doesn't have nearly the capicity of many other delivery mechanisms that require much less skill and technology to operate. Beyond R/C airplanes, the community of folks that buys and discusses AP/UAV equipment is very small.

I'll toss one more tidbit in here at the end for free. I do know that the FBI maintains lists of folks that cause concern, or associate with people that are a cause for concern. If someone is really up to something, it doesn't take all that long for them to hit the list multiple times, and as soon as that happens, these people are watched *very* closely.

I'm not sure how I feel about all this ... certainly an element of me is concerned about erosion of liberties and it makes me nervous how closely we are watched at times. On the other hand, as a father of two small children, I welcome the protection, even dumb things like strict enforcement of speed limits, and a physical presence of law enforcement in my neighborhood.

So despite what you hear if you only listen to the media, there are a lot of smart, hard working folks, doing a lot of *really* smart things behind the scenes on our behalf to keep us safe here and abroad. They aren't perfect of course, and not everything the do or have done is entirely smart, but personally I very much respect the hard work, determination, and self sacrifice of those that are putting their own lives on the line to protect us.

Curt.
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Old May 26, 2007, 03:06 PM
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Officialdom is well aware of the potential problems; and there have been programmes running for several years regarding the countering of such threats. I speak from personal knowlege having been involved in such programmes. Further information will not be forthcoming, but rest assured that it is being taken care of.I would counsel that speculation on such matters is best not posted.
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Old May 26, 2007, 05:22 PM
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clolson, I hear ya about Timothy McVeigh. The forensics afterward were what brought him down. The point I was making was the "before" part. He used something that didn't stand out at first. It's not easy for the "public" to spot something awry when you're using an every day item.
But a model plane would generate interest from the public at large immediately. My thought is that we have more to worry about with an errant plane causing a fire or some other such event than we do about an actual intentional missuse. But accidents can and do happen and not just to model planes.
That truck that burned the overpass in california comes to mind. Having said that, you still see all kinds of tankers on the highways.
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Old May 26, 2007, 05:27 PM
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My own observations, is that these reporters and politicians will somehow get discredited for making a small issue a big one. But, the networks make money off of this stuff, just like they do when they broadcast Jerry Springer!

NorfolkSouthern

Personally I never understood why they are basically telling terrorists how to hit targets like that natural gas tanker that goes into some large harbor out east. Sometimes I think the media try to create problems where none existed before just to scare people and get big ratings.
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Old May 26, 2007, 08:34 PM
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Reporters are very intelligent people, Randall. They have interpersonal skills that are over and above most people. I wouldn't put the ability to sell a refrigerator to an eskimo beyond their capabilities. In addition to that, many such individuals have their own agenda in mind when they present their observations to the public.

One incident in California involving the Bay Bridge and a tanker truck has caused quite a stir among the media. Perhaps, for a good reason as the driver of the truck had an extensive criminal history. He passed the background check in spite of it, because there were no new offences for the last 10 years before he was granted the endorsement. I am sure it would have been even easier for him to pass if he merely had a serious and persistant mental illness.

The driver was speeding when he took the corner, just before hitting the bridge, which cause a massive fire of 8,000 gallons of gasoline. This alone, I believe, will result in even more extensive background checks on drivers than are already required. Thankfully, nothing on this scale has ever happened within the hobby, and I expect it never will. However, the reporters in this case will get their ideas across to the policy makers I'm sure. I think much of that is part of the reason for the media telling the terrorists how to hit targets. They just go at it differently from organizations like Greenpeace or PETA (I call it "P.I.T.A", short for "pain in the ***").

NorfolkSouthern
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Old May 26, 2007, 08:55 PM
Professor of Wood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macboffin
I would counsel that speculation on such matters is best not posted.
Agreed.

Dan
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Old May 27, 2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kd7ost
Agreed.

Dan
Amen
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Old May 28, 2007, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingnut31
I have been interested in RC planes for a long time and have thought some anout UAV's. Being in the USAF and getting to see some UAV's in action and having to look for terrorest threats a thought occured to me. What kind of danger or harm could someone used a large scale model as a weapon. With the technology that is available and the motivation to cause harm that some people have, isn't it a matter of time before someone builds a drone equipped to carry a dangerous payload?

The method used to build such a UAV is not my focus here, I dont want to encourage anyone to move in this direction of turn this into a terrorists how-to. My worry is that if it happens the danger to the hobby could be great. Law makers could be pushed to set regulations that would limit what, where, and how we fly and build. Imagin having to register our models having to have them inspected or certified. Being limited to only a few places to fly or being limited on the size of out models. The "Predator" is a "drone", (Better called a UCAV, Uninhabited Combat Air Vehicle) which can carry "Hellfire" missiles, has been used in this role.Yes, been done!

I think it is just a matter of time before we have to deal with this. Has this topic been brought up already?
The Predator uav can carry, target, and fire Hellfire missiles.They cause harm.Usually, it seems, to civilians.
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Old May 28, 2007, 10:26 PM
Starting to Rebuild
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With the old saying about flogging a dead horse, Im gonna call an end to this thread.
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